INTERVIEW: Kelly Sue DeConnick

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you you Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host, Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles.

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Joining us today is the Eisner Award-winning writer of titles like Bitch Planet, with artist Valentine Delandro, Pretty Deadly with Emma Rios, Wonder Woman Historia with artist Phil Jimenez, Jean Ha, and Nicholas Scott.

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Not to mention, she was the driving force behind the reinvention of Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel over at Marvel Comics.

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She's with us today to discuss FML.

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Her punk rock coming of age murder mystery about a group of metal kids who face a medley of bizarre foes and encounters in Portland, Oregon during a worldwide pandemic.

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is our great honor to welcome the original Riot girl, Kelly Sue DeConnick onto the Oblivion Bar podcast.

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Hello.

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I'm so not the original.

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Original riot girl, but you know, whatever.

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What are your thoughts really quickly?

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We've never asked this question, Aaron, but I feel like Kelly might be the first person that I want to actually hear some, uh I guess, some feedback on.

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When you have that big, long sort of verbose intro where you just lay out your entire bibliography, is that weird for you to sit there and listen to as we go into the show?

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It is weird, but it is less weird than why don't you introduce yourself to the folks who might not be familiar with you?

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Yeah, okay.

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So uncomfortable.

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I deeply resent.

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yeah, it's also weird to do a podcast.

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You know what I mean?

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uh There's a company now that's been sending me advertising like, hey, we heard you on this podcast and we could get you booked on more podcasts.

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You're like, I don't want to do more podcasts.

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What are you talking about?

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I'm not.

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I'm very limited podcast.

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Yeah, I like I don't have time to do the ones that I'm, which is not a lovely way to open our conversation.

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I'm delighted to be here.

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Here, we already got you.

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um But yeah, it's like, don't need more things to put on my calendar.

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I need more writing time.

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Do you have an app for that?

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Well, Kelly, trust me, we are fully aware.

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You do not have to like sugarcoat anything.

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We know what it's like as a creator or just as like someone in the comics that, you know, time is of the essence and also like podcasts are like on the fourth or fifth tier of importance.

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So we just appreciate the fact that you're here to talk to us.

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I'm listening to a billion of them for what that's worth.

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I appreciate the importance of them.

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uh one of them will be the oblivion bar pod.

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There you go.

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Matt said it was lot of fun.

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You know what?

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We appreciate Matt.

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He was here with Michael Allred and then we also had your friend Brian Michael Bend does on the show.

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So we're just we're capturing all of the like upper northwest, like Portland area comic creators like Pokemon.

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We're just like, yeah, we got on the show.

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So you Greg Rucka, Steve Lieber, like we'll get your list.

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Yeah, we'll get that after the show here.

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The Pokedex.

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And Kelly, we were talking a little bit before the recording here.

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I feel like we had to at least give you just the smallest amount of shit.

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You know, we were going to talk to you prior to New York Comic Con and then you went off, went globetrotting to Spain for and tell me, was something with San Diego Comic Con.

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What were you guys doing over there?

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It was a San Diego Comic-Con, guess, is franchised or licensed or something.

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There is now a San Diego Comic-Con Malaga, Spain.

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So we went to go do that.

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And then we came home and got COVID.

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And then my husband was hospitalized for four days.

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Yeah, well, see, that's thing is I was going to give you like a playful uh like jab for rescheduling on us.

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But then I saw, I think it was maybe yesterday that Matt was in the hospital.

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So I guess first question is like, how is Matt now?

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Is he doing okay?

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He is.

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is.

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is well, we think it was related to the COVID.

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We don't really know for sure because I don't know.

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We don't have a CDC anymore.

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We don't track this stuff.

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So, uh, it was a rough four days, but he is healthy and well and back at his desk and, uh, just a little tired, I think.

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Good to hear that.

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then I guess also secondary question to that is how was that San Diego Comic-Con event?

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Because as you said, wasn't sure that San Diego was doing like this franchise thing where they, you know, they'll go off to another country and sort of host their own version of San Diego Comic-Con.

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So I was just kind of curious.

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I saw a lot of folks post about this and I saw you had pictures of like Belen Ortega and a couple other creators.

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How was that event for you guys?

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It was terrific.

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It was maybe the best trip, international trip that we've done ever for horror.

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In terms of, I invariably will go somewhere and like our time together in Paris, Matt went out and saw the city and I spent the day in the hotel working on a script, you know, and um like that sort of thing will happen a lot.

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we actually had a uh a really lovely time in Spain and were able to balance the time at the convention with spending time with our friends there and just a was our wedding anniversary and we had not been together for like the last two anniversaries.

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so it was nice to be together and be able to finish a sentence without being interrupted by a dog or a child or, you know.

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So it was, it was pretty terrific.

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The con itself has some growing pains.

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Everyone was so lovely as guests.

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had a very nice experience.

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I think there were some attendees that were not happy with the way things went.

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I think there was, I think they were prepared for the crowds that they were going to get.

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And so there were, the lines were pretty brutal and there were people who like had tickets but gave up because they couldn't get in.

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And so ah that kind of thing was hard.

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But if you think about the way a con usually starts, know, it's like, it's in a church basement and then it's in a hotel extra room and then it's in the hotel ballroom and they kind of scale up slowly as they kind of get there to try.

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to launch a San Diego Comic Con as year one, you know, was there were gonna be some growing pains.

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I'm not shocked.

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I don't think anybody did anything malicious or inept.

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uh I think just growing pains, mistakes were made and hopefully they'll do it again and get a little better at it.

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But you could not possibly be in a more beautiful place for it.

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I was just gobsmacked the whole time I was there.

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And also Spaniards are disturbingly attractive human beings.

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uh Well, don't know.

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Here's the thing is that we were Aaron and I were at New York Comic Con and we do work with comic sketch art sometimes and we've got like Jorge Jimenez and Belen Ortega and Bruno Rondondo and all these folks on our team and you look at him you're like, were you like sculpted from marble?

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What happened?

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Like how do you be this talented and this good looking at the same time?

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Recon.

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Jorge is just not, you should just take Jorge off the table because that's not, even for Spaniards, like that's not cool.

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can't.

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And like, Andy's nice, Andy's obscenely talented, and he dresses exceptionally well.

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Was just like staring at his shoes at one point, going, those are big boy shoes.

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I don't know anybody that wears big boy shoes.

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These are like these are not adidas.

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These are like nice like fashion, you know, This is not a unique thing.

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mean, you got to look at you got like Jenny Friesen.

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Um, what's a Piccolo?

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What's a Gabriel Piccolo?

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Gabrielle Piccolo.

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Many, so many people are just like exceptionally talented and exceptionally beautiful and it is terrifying to me.

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It's just rude.

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Yeah.

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kind of want to jump into this conversation because I'm excited to talk to you, especially about one thing, which is our kind of shared past experiences, so to speak, because I'm not sure how many of those who are listening know this about you, but like myself, you're a military brat.

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You grew up on military bases while your father, Robert, served in the Air Force.

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And I also read about how your parents actually used to take you to local comic book stores, specifically Stars and Stripes bookstore on Han Air Base in Germany as a reward for doing chores around the house.

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So let's start with this.

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Everyone in this chat knows Chris is military.

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I'm military.

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You're, know, military brat.

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What it's like being in that structured environment and how it can morph kind of your entire personality, you know, to a certain point in your life.

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Are there any particular personality traits that you feel you've obtained from being around the military, military brat at such a uh young age?

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And then do you still have them now?

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Gosh, well, A, look at you doing your homework.

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Cookies for that.

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B, while I was growing up, I did not relish moving every two to three years, but I think I got a kind of perspective from it.

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And especially because we moved internationally quite a bit.

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I grew up with the understanding that we are not the center of the universe.

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All things don't bend towards the way Americans like to do them.

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No one cares as much as we think they care.

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And so that was a lovely, that's not bad news.

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That's good news, guys.

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Like that was a lovely kind of perspective to grow up with.

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And I also, did an interview last night.

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with some academics who are working on researching a thing that they're going to do with Historia.

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And, it was a really extraordinary, just delightful conversation.

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And we talked a little bit about the idea of the warrior.

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And, you know, I took some...

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Can I curse on this?

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Yeah, please.

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Okay.

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All right.

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Fuck yeah.

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ah Sweet.

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I took some shit during when I was working on Captain Marvel for contributing to the military industrial complex recruiting or whatever.

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I mean, I'm certainly left of center and I don't want to fuel the military industrial complex at the same time.

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If there is a better way to keep the peace than to have a standing army, we haven't found it yet.

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And I would would be lovely if we could get on that.

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And there are a lot of soldiers and airmen that are these peaceful warriors that I have a tremendous respect for.

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And also, I think there's This is a little bit of a tangent, but I have a real disproportionate soft spot for Captain America whose weapon is a shield, which I think if they're, you we talk so much about what toxic masculinity is and, you know, if we're looking for what are the models of positive masculinity, you couldn't do better than the protector, you know?

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And to have...

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A character like that whose job is to protect those that stand beside or behind him and to do so in a defensive posture rather than an aggressive posture is, I don't know, think there's something that's just astonishingly beautiful about that.

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So I think that ethos that I think some would probably find naive.

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I will have to own, but it is definitely a part of who I am.

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And I think it does come to from growing up on military bases, you know, and then there's also the fact that because of the unfortunate history of this country, the way hierarchies work, our military is largely comprised of underclasses and having grown up poor folks who largely enlisted because that was the only option that we had to get the coverage that my parents needed so that, you know, I could see doctors.

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To have that be how my dad was able to finish school, I don't know.

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And for that to be the community that I grew up in means a lot to me.

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Yeah, I think you kind of nailed it on the head too within like the first 10 seconds, know, when you were given that answer is I think it's the perspective, you know, Aaron joined at a very young age, I joined at a very young age, we're Aaron, you were 17, correct?

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I 18, I have to echo what you said, Kelly, and that's that you absolutely do grow up with this completely different perspective.

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And it really is that exactly what you said, the United States is not the center of the universe, not the entire world does not revolve around the US.

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And we don't necessarily do things the best as we like to bulk ourselves up to believe that we do.

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There are plenty of countries around the world that do things quite a bit better than we do.

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some of those things and I'll just go ahead and say it some of those things are take care of its people.

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That's also why we have this this uh chain with this difference in our society where you know we have a military that yes is a quote unquote all volunteer force but it does prey on those that are less you know less unfortunate or less fortunate less you know uh able to to move beyond their their re their means ah whereas you have other countries where you know everybody's treated like a certain you know quality of life.

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and you have a mandatory service maybe a year or two years.

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So like there's things that you have to trade off for when it comes to taxes, care, law.

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And again, uh that's the other side of it is it's always double-sided.

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You have that growing up with a better perspective, but you also have, know, Chris, you grew up with roots somewhere.

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You grew up with friends and family that you were close to connected with.

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As a military brat, we don't do that.

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We don't get the childhood.

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that is ingrained into a community.

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are literally, our community is a nomadic lifestyle that we may attach to people for two to three to four years at the most.

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And so, yeah, it definitely is a strength, but it also leaves a lot to be desired.

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Yeah, is a, I have a dad's family is Italian and they're from a very Italian American community.

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And, and I have a lot of identity tied up in that, but it's, was a, like I got to visit a couple times a year, those big, like the funeral that somehow becomes a party.

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and everybody's smoking and drinking and playing poker and dancing.

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it's, you know, this sort of, have fond memories of those experiences, but they were not my, I was visiting.

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There is some element of, I like to claim that part of my family, but I'm a little bit of a pretender to it because it was only a thing I got to experience.

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like I said, a couple times a year.

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Yeah, it's interesting.

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know, growing up in the Midwest and joining the military at a young age, you have this like, and I sort of shutter to use this word, but like there's a bit of indoctrination that goes along with being, you know, I'm from a small town in Indiana.

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Everybody in your circle tells you this is this honorable, selfless thing to go and join the military.

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And then you learn almost instantly that like you are not protecting anything.

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You are painting fences and standing at attention most of the time.

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Yeah.

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That honestly, there's something, there is something also I think very valuable to it.

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No, I think there's something in fact even more beautiful about that.

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We were talking at Worldcon.

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I was on a panel talking about women in the military.

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And out of the gate, became this like, it was like this weird screech of like one of the other panelists was, know, women shouldn't be in the military because we shouldn't have a military because And she was kidding, sort of, but she was like, you know, literally we should gardening, and taking care of the children.

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And she met like everyone.

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It wasn't a like anti-feminist thing, but like it was this weird, instead of like training people to kill people.

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like, and this conversation was going on for a bit where we were talking about, you know, the theoretical versus the practical and the, you know, no one.

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wants war.

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think like, I mean, unless you're a crazy person, and certainly we have some crazy maniac want to kill people, people in the world, but that's not most people.

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It's not most soldiers.

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It's not that's errant and weird.

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And we were probably three quarters of the way through the conversation when I was like, can we please stop and talk about most people that serve are never going to fire a weapon outside of training.

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And most hunters have more kills than most people that serve in the military.

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And we have all the military folks that showed up to help us get our vaccines.

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The Army Corps of Engineers that always come in when some place gets flooded nearly out of existence.

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And that...

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is as much a part of the military as the fighting or the being prepared to fight as a deterrent.

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And there's all kinds of fucked up things that as Americans we do with our military and I'm not defending any of it.

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What I'm defending is the soldiers and the fact that practically speaking we have not evolved to a point where we don't need.

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outstanding military and also these people do a lot of really wonderful things that have uh nothing to do with hurting anybody.

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We wish we didn't have, we wish we didn't need them, but we have them because we do.

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And it's going to be a necessity and you're exactly right.

00:21:28.694 --> 00:21:46.080
It's going to be a necessity until we, excuse me, are able to evolve past this, these, these trivial things that, that put, that put rifts between us and as, as people, as a society, as freaking humans, it's, seems like something so simple that we can't just get along.

00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:54.798
um tell you what, I'm going to dig us out of this military hole and we're going to get into some, know, because as you said there, Kelly, can have a whole conversation on it.

00:21:54.798 --> 00:22:02.258
We could, could, we could use this entire conversation talking about the nuance of being in the military and what the military represents and what it's like in the military, all those things.

00:22:02.258 --> 00:22:15.809
But I really, I think while we have you here and before we actually get even get into FML, I have to ask you, you recently said on the pop culture squad podcast, speaking of your podcast appearances and also a shout out to Bob Harrison, all the good work he does over there.

00:22:15.809 --> 00:22:16.993
lovely human being.

00:22:16.993 --> 00:22:17.494
Totally.

00:22:17.494 --> 00:22:18.596
Yeah, Bob rocks.

00:22:18.596 --> 00:22:19.316
Here's what you said.

00:22:19.316 --> 00:22:20.376
It was really profound.

00:22:20.376 --> 00:22:24.539
You said, I'm constantly in a state of fear and regret while writing.

00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:26.442
I've learned to keep going anyway.

00:22:26.442 --> 00:22:31.204
When you said that, I sort of noodled on that idea for a moment after you said it.

00:22:31.526 --> 00:22:41.453
you know, someone who firmly believes and I apologize for the brown nosing here, but I feel like you've cemented yourself as, one of the singular voices in comics and definitely one of the all time greats in this medium.

00:22:41.453 --> 00:22:44.896
And I guess I would just love to hear you just a quick aw.

00:22:44.896 --> 00:22:46.413
Aw, thank you.

00:22:46.413 --> 00:22:57.364
uh I would love to hear you sort of uh expand on the idea of like where that fear and regret still comes from the current state of your career.

00:22:58.476 --> 00:23:15.153
I mean, there are things I know I've gotten better at, but the process of learning anything, every time you level up, you're sort of opening your eyes to how much more you have to learn.

00:23:15.712 --> 00:23:22.955
If I ever get to the point where I think I've got it down, I suspect I've reached a point where I'm lying to myself and I need to retire.

00:23:22.955 --> 00:23:28.246
um Because you just learn so much more about...

00:23:28.246 --> 00:23:30.747
what's possible and what you haven't been thinking about.

00:23:30.747 --> 00:23:38.229
And so there are undoubtedly things I've gotten much better at with practice.

00:23:38.608 --> 00:23:47.671
And one of those things is sort of trusting that I'm gonna figure it out.

00:23:48.310 --> 00:23:58.134
When Emma and I were doing Pretty Deadly, which was my first creator-owned book, we had done a couple of Marvel things together.

00:23:58.387 --> 00:24:02.101
And so was like, you know, let's do, let's do something we own.

00:24:02.101 --> 00:24:03.701
We started working on this.

00:24:03.701 --> 00:24:05.553
I pitched her a couple of things.

00:24:05.553 --> 00:24:06.723
We developed it a little bit.

00:24:06.723 --> 00:24:18.451
I started writing and then I got stuck and I reached out to her and was just like, look, I am sorry.

00:24:18.451 --> 00:24:20.063
I convinced you to do this.

00:24:20.063 --> 00:24:21.473
I'm sorry you got into business with me.

00:24:21.473 --> 00:24:23.935
I'm going to pay you back for the time that you've wasted.

00:24:23.935 --> 00:24:26.438
I don't know what I'm doing.

00:24:26.438 --> 00:24:30.589
And, uh, and I'm very embarrassed, but I want to own this.

00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:32.349
And she wrote back.

00:24:32.349 --> 00:24:37.069
the thing about if you ever meet Emma, she's a tiny little, she's very slight.

00:24:37.069 --> 00:24:39.549
She's like an Elfen person.

00:24:41.069 --> 00:24:48.410
Yes, and she's Spanish, but she's also, she does historical European martial arts.

00:24:48.410 --> 00:24:55.349
So she does like sword fighting with like the long sword and the dagger and the like, she's badass, but a tiny, tiny little badass.

00:24:55.349 --> 00:25:05.252
So, She's actually quite soft spoken, but in my head, she sounds like a Russian ballet instructor.

00:25:05.252 --> 00:25:13.058
So when I tell Emma stories, the Emma that I do is the Emma from my head, not the Emma from reality.

00:25:13.058 --> 00:25:22.707
But she wrote me back and said, my sister, you do this every time.

00:25:23.246 --> 00:25:29.172
You freak out, you go, terrible, I can do it.

00:25:29.172 --> 00:25:31.973
And then you disappear to your dark place.

00:25:31.973 --> 00:25:34.275
And I don't hear from you for days.

00:25:34.275 --> 00:25:38.156
And then you rise like that Kraken.

00:25:38.258 --> 00:25:39.979
And I have my script.

00:25:40.398 --> 00:25:50.986
And it was this thing that this gift that she gave me where she contextualized it for me that no getting lost is part of my process.

00:25:51.125 --> 00:25:54.587
Writing to the point where I'm like, well, I don't know what's going to happen.

00:25:54.587 --> 00:25:58.300
We'll certainly ensure that the reader doesn't know what's going to happen either.

00:25:58.300 --> 00:26:07.877
Now I always know what the ending is going to be, or at least I have a direction I intend the ending to go, but I don't know how I'm going to get there.

00:26:07.877 --> 00:26:13.050
And frequently I am surprised by the corners that I turned that I didn't know were there.

00:26:13.050 --> 00:26:30.125
And it used to be a lot harder than it is now, but that doesn't mean that there isn't some voice in my head every time that's like, oh, maybe this will be the one you don't figure out, you know?

00:26:30.464 --> 00:26:37.067
And I've also learned like some of the things that will help me figure those things out.

00:26:37.067 --> 00:26:45.089
But I don't seem to be able to rush the process, which is a thing that I'm not happy about, but it is what it is.

00:26:45.165 --> 00:26:45.720
Mm-hmm.

00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:48.361
Does it change at all that you know that it's a process?

00:26:48.361 --> 00:26:51.109
Like it's something that happens cyclically.

00:26:51.470 --> 00:26:53.430
Yeah, it does.

00:26:53.430 --> 00:26:55.049
it makes it...

00:26:55.049 --> 00:27:04.730
You know, I'm fortunate that both of my children see themselves as writers, and so I've gotten to have a lot of really wonderful writerly conversations with them of late.

00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:12.990
And my daughter was asking me the other day about being stuck and, like, what do you do when you have...

00:27:12.990 --> 00:27:16.509
Well, actually, the way she articulated it was like, what do do when you have writers black?

00:27:16.509 --> 00:27:18.165
And we talked a little bit about...

00:27:18.165 --> 00:27:20.857
what was going on and it was like, honey, you don't have writer's block.

00:27:20.857 --> 00:27:22.067
You're just stuck.

00:27:22.449 --> 00:27:23.299
And that's a different thing.

00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:25.711
And what you need to do is change campuses.

00:27:25.711 --> 00:27:30.314
So set that aside, write something else.

00:27:30.575 --> 00:27:33.797
And the back part of your brain is going to keep cooking on it.

00:27:33.797 --> 00:27:46.569
And you come back to it every once in a while and you check in and there are a few tools that you can use to try to box some things loose and you can.

00:27:46.569 --> 00:27:55.172
go back and figure out like, all right, did you get stuck because there was a problem earlier on, you know, is your problem in your third act actually a problem in your first act or whatever?

00:27:55.172 --> 00:28:02.702
But, but it's possible that you, you, you just need to give it a rest and give your brain a little bit of time.

00:28:02.702 --> 00:28:06.214
And that's a very different thing from being blocked.

00:28:06.275 --> 00:28:09.615
Blocked is I don't want to write.

00:28:09.615 --> 00:28:12.136
I don't know what to write.

00:28:12.237 --> 00:28:16.433
And I'm not, I don't have the drive to sit.

00:28:16.433 --> 00:28:22.116
and get something done stuck is I don't know what to write next.

00:28:22.116 --> 00:28:24.498
I don't know how to work my way through this.

00:28:24.598 --> 00:28:31.801
And then there's also another thing that can happen as a sort of fear paralysis that happens a lot with.

00:28:32.542 --> 00:28:44.690
Yeah, younger writers will have this thing where they can't make themselves get the work done because the idea.

00:28:45.185 --> 00:28:47.026
When have this idea in your head, right?

00:28:47.026 --> 00:28:49.776
It's really, it feels like it's perfect.

00:28:49.776 --> 00:28:50.636
It's so exciting.

00:28:50.636 --> 00:28:51.907
It's really great.

00:28:51.907 --> 00:28:58.329
And then as soon as you take it out of your head and you put it on this piece of paper, now you have some perspective on it.

00:28:58.329 --> 00:29:05.791
And now you can see, look, there's some problems here that I couldn't see when it was right up against my eyes, right?

00:29:05.791 --> 00:29:13.012
And now I'm less enamored and now the wind has been taken out of my sails and I'm less sure of myself.

00:29:13.012 --> 00:29:15.221
And I kind of wanted...

00:29:15.221 --> 00:29:18.232
I'm just a little embarrassed and I just kind of want to put it away and walk away.

00:29:18.232 --> 00:29:30.106
And I never tried that, you know, and you have to be able to get past that because you can always make a thing better that you've written, but you don't get to skip that step.

00:29:30.626 --> 00:29:33.607
And, know, I don't, I don't give a shit about your ideas.

00:29:33.607 --> 00:29:39.359
If you don't ever Matt make anything, I'd rather have a shitty book than a great idea.

00:29:39.448 --> 00:29:41.991
Put that on a t-shirt, carve that into a piece of wood.

00:29:41.991 --> 00:29:46.131
One of those things is a writer and the other one is a dreamer.

00:29:46.145 --> 00:29:52.448
Yeah, yeah, you know, most people who are like the first to criticize and the ones who have the biggest opinions are those who have never created a thing in their life.

00:29:52.577 --> 00:29:55.680
Well, that's that, you know, get into the ring.

00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.702
um You know, it's real easy from the outside.

00:29:59.702 --> 00:30:09.228
There's also, I certainly have critique for other writers' work, but there's a level of respect that comes with it too.

00:30:09.449 --> 00:30:11.478
That's like, yeah, you got in there and made it.

00:30:11.478 --> 00:30:14.940
I always tell Aaron all the time that I will always respect a swing.

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:22.884
Even if I don't necessarily love the execution, if you really go for it, my gosh, I am, because at least then we can talk about it.

00:30:22.884 --> 00:30:25.707
And like there's something to discuss and all that.

00:30:25.707 --> 00:30:35.482
So, and you said something a moment ago that reminded me, I had this conversation with Brian Azzarello a couple of years ago where he talked about how he, and this could just be like, because we all, Brian, God love him.

00:30:35.482 --> 00:30:37.685
He's, but he's kind of a curmudgeon sometimes.

00:30:37.685 --> 00:30:39.311
a little bit, you think?

00:30:40.055 --> 00:30:42.997
And he said something to the effect of like, I don't read comics.

00:30:42.997 --> 00:30:44.077
That's why I'm still doing it.

00:30:44.077 --> 00:30:45.334
That's why I'm still writing comics.

00:30:45.334 --> 00:30:49.382
It's because he says that he doesn't he doesn't like to read the medium that he's working on.

00:30:49.382 --> 00:30:51.373
He finds his inspiration from other pieces.

00:30:51.373 --> 00:31:03.490
And you mentioned a moment ago about how when your daughter is stuck or when she's stuck, you will tell her to move on and do something else, maybe draw a picture or watch a movie or whatever that other activity is.

00:31:04.823 --> 00:31:05.093
sure.

00:31:05.093 --> 00:31:06.453
Yeah, totally.

00:31:06.692 --> 00:31:08.951
You just got to just change canvases.

00:31:08.951 --> 00:31:16.214
That's, you know, I mean, all the things that will get me unstuck most often are going for a walk, taking a shower, going for a drive.

00:31:16.214 --> 00:31:28.310
um I think that's something about the keeping your body activated and getting away from your desk helps in some strange way.

00:31:28.310 --> 00:31:36.442
And you let your mind wander in a a way you kind of can't staring at the blank page.

00:31:36.442 --> 00:31:42.781
But yeah, I mean, I don't want to fight Brian and I don't, well, okay, I do.

00:31:42.781 --> 00:31:46.682
But I don't read as many comics as I should.

00:31:46.682 --> 00:31:51.882
And I think you should certainly, I'm not a big fan of comics about comics.

00:31:52.061 --> 00:31:57.781
And I mean that not in the instructional way.

00:31:57.781 --> 00:32:02.082
I'm a huge fan of like Scott McCloud and Yeah.

00:32:02.082 --> 00:32:12.865
Who's done more for this industry than most anyone, but superhero continuity comics about superhero continuity comics.

00:32:13.525 --> 00:32:27.608
Where they sort of stop being about anything outside of the comics or, you know, you take your chance to do an indie comic and you make it about how much you don't like doing corporate comics.

00:32:27.608 --> 00:32:30.029
uh It's.

00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:30.708
Yeah.

00:32:30.708 --> 00:32:32.724
It's meta, but it's also...

00:32:33.175 --> 00:32:33.721
Boring.

00:32:33.721 --> 00:32:34.519
Yeah.

00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:38.232
self-indulgent and does it really have any actual...

00:32:38.252 --> 00:32:39.574
is it art?

00:32:40.875 --> 00:32:41.266
And...

00:32:41.266 --> 00:32:43.317
ooh, I'm just picking fights here.

00:32:43.317 --> 00:32:45.594
ah CBR, you listening?

00:32:45.594 --> 00:32:47.278
Kelly Suna-Khan does not like watchmen.

00:32:47.278 --> 00:32:49.724
You heard her here first on the Oblivion Bar.

00:32:49.724 --> 00:32:55.314
eh Uh, that was not what I was thinking of.

00:32:57.473 --> 00:33:13.637
But, uh, yeah, there's a, I can concur with Brian in that way, but if, if, if he means to say that comics aren't good enough to be worth his time, then fuck you, do something else.

00:33:13.998 --> 00:33:15.117
I'm not sure he said that.

00:33:15.117 --> 00:33:21.291
I don't know what to put any words in his mouth, you know, if he did, I you shouldn't work in a medium you have disdain for.

00:33:21.291 --> 00:33:24.000
You shouldn't write for readers you have disdain for.

00:33:25.314 --> 00:33:35.604
Well, I'll tell you what, Aaron, unless you have something to build off that, I want to get into FML because, you know, we've been here for 30 minutes now, Kelly, and we haven't talked about one of my favorite books of the year thus far, and I need to pick your brain on it.

00:33:35.604 --> 00:33:37.920
Aaron, anything before we move on to FML?

00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:39.534
No, I want to talk about FML.

00:33:39.534 --> 00:33:41.670
I appreciate the candor.

00:33:41.670 --> 00:33:46.669
I appreciate the transparency and the honesty.

00:33:46.806 --> 00:34:00.009
Yeah, you've you've said something really before we actually get an FML you've said something really profound to me about or not to me but just in general about honesty how you said that you're not wanting to start fights but you're not afraid to start fights when it comes to honesty.

00:34:00.009 --> 00:34:01.971
Do remember saying something like that at one point?

00:34:02.145 --> 00:34:03.006
I probably did.

00:34:03.006 --> 00:34:06.328
I don't remember it, um that sounds like me.

00:34:06.328 --> 00:34:16.014
um Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to piss people off, but also you have to have a point of view.

00:34:16.014 --> 00:34:17.565
I'm also not afraid to be wrong.

00:34:17.565 --> 00:34:18.885
Great.

00:34:18.885 --> 00:34:19.565
Am I wrong?

00:34:19.565 --> 00:34:20.306
Teach me something.

00:34:20.306 --> 00:34:22.018
Exactly.

00:34:22.018 --> 00:34:24.159
So it's all fun.

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:28.760
And I don't like something I say.

00:34:29.474 --> 00:34:44.807
getting taken out of context and being made into a clickbait thing where they're taking a disingenuous position on what I said to try to stir up controversy where there isn't any.

00:34:44.807 --> 00:34:49.867
Which has happened to you an annoying amount of times throughout your career as someone who's been a yours for a long time.

00:34:49.867 --> 00:34:51.552
I wonder why.

00:34:53.335 --> 00:34:54.860
I couldn't even place it, Kelly.

00:34:54.860 --> 00:34:57.646
really, it doesn't even come to mind why you would be the person.

00:34:57.646 --> 00:35:00.007
could be about.

00:35:00.106 --> 00:35:01.519
Hmm.

00:35:01.519 --> 00:35:05.057
Yeah, that's Someone write in.

00:35:05.057 --> 00:35:10.472
uh But yeah, so I mean, don't love that part.

00:35:10.472 --> 00:35:27.626
uh But yeah, I mean, don't think it's a particularly, taking a position like, you you should probably love comics if you work in comics feels about as brave as I am anti-child abuse, you know, so.

00:35:27.626 --> 00:35:29.065
It's not really a jump off the cliff.

00:35:29.065 --> 00:35:30.166
Same energy.

00:35:30.326 --> 00:35:30.525
Yeah.

00:35:30.525 --> 00:35:44.666
Well, I'll tell you what, let's let's get into FML here because again, I want to I've been wanting to talk about And when we when we were first approached to talk to you and it just it's just what happened that sort of coincided with the sort of the end of the first arc of FML with with issue six.

00:35:44.666 --> 00:35:51.788
So of course, this is your Dark Horse series with David Lopez, Colors by Chris Peter and Letters by Clayton Cowles.

00:35:51.788 --> 00:36:03.152
I'm going to give a brief synopsis for the layman in case folks for some reason, if they've been under- quick correction, which is the first arc is not actually done yet and it goes to issue eight.

00:36:03.152 --> 00:36:03.572
okay.

00:36:03.572 --> 00:36:04.043
There you go.

00:36:04.043 --> 00:36:04.583
News to me.

00:36:04.583 --> 00:36:05.072
Perfect.

00:36:05.072 --> 00:36:06.085
Thank you so much for the correction.

00:36:06.085 --> 00:36:07.085
Yeah.

00:36:07.085 --> 00:36:08.637
So again, quick synopsis here.

00:36:08.637 --> 00:36:14.851
So Riley is a teen that sketches out his heavy metal future with a ballpoint pen between monster movies and band practice.

00:36:14.851 --> 00:36:17.675
But musical stardom needs to compete with high school.

00:36:17.675 --> 00:36:26.922
The temper of a former riot girl mother, the morbid obsessions of a God sister and the craziness of his bandmates that threaten to drive him and everyone around him insane.

00:36:26.922 --> 00:36:38.652
The balance gets harder after ritual during a party in Portland's Forest Park causes him to wake up one day to discover that the creatures, witchcraft and metal world that he obsesses with may be a bit closer to home than he preferred.

00:36:38.652 --> 00:36:40.443
So Kelly, we recently had a panel.

00:36:40.443 --> 00:36:50.981
This is a weird, shameless name drop, but we had a panel at New York Comic-Con and we were asked, you know, what's a current series that you think should be on everyone's pool?

00:36:51.003 --> 00:36:53.974
And again, here's another shameless attempt at brown nosing.

00:36:53.974 --> 00:36:55.257
I said FML.

00:36:55.257 --> 00:36:56.900
So let's start.

00:36:56.900 --> 00:36:57.480
there's another.

00:36:57.480 --> 00:36:57.998
that's Aaron.

00:36:57.998 --> 00:36:58.661
That's two.

00:36:58.661 --> 00:37:00.710
Let's put that on the check mark for two.

00:37:00.710 --> 00:37:02.416
I need four to unlock the key to time.

00:37:02.416 --> 00:37:04.518
All right.

00:37:04.518 --> 00:37:06.048
So, Kelly, let's start here.

00:37:06.130 --> 00:37:09.483
How did this idea sort of land over at Dark Horse?

00:37:09.483 --> 00:37:14.527
And then also, why was David Lopez the correct collaborator for this series?

00:37:14.541 --> 00:37:18.936
Okay, so it started with David and I were at...

00:37:18.936 --> 00:37:24.949
Dave, Yes, although he is very not picky about it.

00:37:24.969 --> 00:37:28.442
Like the first time I called him David, he was like, ooh, David.

00:37:28.442 --> 00:37:31.023
It's your name.

00:37:31.023 --> 00:37:43.585
David and I were at the premiere of Captain Marvel and we were at dinner with our families.

00:37:43.585 --> 00:37:49.119
he was like, you know, we should do something, create our own together.

00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:50.710
And I was like.

00:37:51.443 --> 00:37:55.795
Yes, we need to find the right idea.

00:37:55.795 --> 00:38:09.614
And I'd had an interesting experience working with David on Captain Marvel in that I felt like I had never, I didn't figure out how to write for him until our last issue together.

00:38:09.614 --> 00:38:14.126
You know, he writes this very like...

00:38:14.126 --> 00:38:24.826
very expressive cartooning and so I kept always chasing that tone and trying to like up the humor and up the and like Catch it.

00:38:24.826 --> 00:38:36.965
I could never Seem to get it aligned right and on the last issue I kind of gave up and I mean, I'm happy with our run.

00:38:36.965 --> 00:38:47.534
I'm very proud of our run there are a few issues in there that I'm very proud of but it It wasn't until the last issue of The Run when it was a bittersweet thing.

00:38:47.534 --> 00:39:09.469
We were saying goodbye to Carol and my aunt that I had based one of the characters on had died from cancer and one of Carol's supporting cast members had cancer so that I could kind of deal with that in parallel.

00:39:09.469 --> 00:39:11.949
So Carol was saying goodbye to her.

00:39:12.277 --> 00:39:31.492
I just wrote the comic and didn't try to chase David and then he nailed it and it was absolutely beautiful and was like, shit, well, this is not the moment to figure this out.

00:39:31.492 --> 00:39:37.155
So at that dinner I was like, well, yes, but we need to have the right tonal idea.

00:39:37.217 --> 00:39:39.838
He would come to me every couple of years.

00:39:40.041 --> 00:39:43.784
and be like, hey, you know, I'm like, yeah, I don't know.

00:39:43.784 --> 00:39:51.987
And then and then at some point he was like, he loves high fantasy.

00:39:51.987 --> 00:39:57.121
so he was like, you know, let's do like a high fantasy thing.

00:39:57.121 --> 00:40:02.963
And we messed around with a because Matt said.

00:40:03.021 --> 00:40:04.641
He was like, you know, a magic school.

00:40:04.641 --> 00:40:06.942
And I was like, I don't think I really want to do my Hogwarts.

00:40:06.942 --> 00:40:08.101
And I was talking to Matt about it.

00:40:08.101 --> 00:40:10.601
And Matt was like, no, but you should do your DeVry.

00:40:11.141 --> 00:40:13.641
Like, what is.

00:40:13.641 --> 00:40:20.882
Yeah, I was like, you know, if, if, Hogwarts is the Eaton of the magic world, what's the DeVry of the magic world?

00:40:20.882 --> 00:40:21.902
That's what you should write.

00:40:21.902 --> 00:40:30.981
And I was like, And so I dicked around with that for a little while and that got us into the.

00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:37.704
writing about a group of kids and then Daveed wanted to do D &D stuff.

00:40:37.704 --> 00:40:44.617
And then I was like, well, what if we wrote about like a kid that plays a role playing game?

00:40:44.617 --> 00:40:58.204
And I had discovered this band Necro Gobblecon and was kind of obsessed with the fact that they had like ogre hype man kind of, he's not an ogre, he's a goblin, my bad.

00:40:58.204 --> 00:40:59.916
John, I'm sorry, I apologize.

00:40:59.916 --> 00:41:06.697
I do apologize to our audience for Kelly Sue's very, very insincere and inconsiderate goblin reference.

00:41:08.438 --> 00:41:08.838
right?

00:41:08.838 --> 00:41:23.242
um And so uh I liked this idea that so I saw the picture of the actor that plays John Gobblecon and like he's very handsome and I was like what?

00:41:23.242 --> 00:41:34.965
That was really funny to me that he would deliberately make himself into this and he's not like it's not like a big powerful like he played he's like the goblin schmuck you know?

00:41:34.965 --> 00:41:39.646
um And there was just something really fantastic about that.

00:41:39.646 --> 00:41:40.306
I loved that.

00:41:40.306 --> 00:42:01.612
And I had the idea that a kid was gonna do a one crazy night story with a kid who's big D&D, paints minis, does monster making stuff, and his friends have a band and they convince him to dress up like the goblin to be like a hype man for their band.

00:42:01.753 --> 00:42:06.733
But being the goblin gives him the courage to talk to the girl that he likes.

00:42:06.733 --> 00:42:12.193
who's the girl that works the merch desk or desk table, whatever.

00:42:12.514 --> 00:42:27.313
And then like the money box gets stolen and they have to go chasing it down, but he won't take off the goblin thing because he doesn't want her to know that it's really him because she's never talked to him before.

00:42:28.233 --> 00:42:33.233
So, and I did all this research on like one crazy night stories and started working on that.

00:42:33.233 --> 00:42:35.813
And then we did seven pages of that.

00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:37.650
and scrapped it.

00:42:37.650 --> 00:42:45.235
And I mean, I still think it's a good idea, but yeah, so we did like seven pages of that and then it wasn't quite landing.

00:42:45.695 --> 00:42:55.740
part of that was because I was really trying to have the D &D stuff be a big part of it and I was faking it because I'm not a high fantasy person.

00:42:56.001 --> 00:42:59.072
And I think you can read when somebody's lying.

00:42:59.072 --> 00:43:04.184
And so Dubbed was like, just do the thing that you wanna do and...

00:43:05.215 --> 00:43:08.762
It's the same kid, but it's a different story.

00:43:08.762 --> 00:43:12.577
Like I said, I still think that other idea is a good idea.

00:43:12.858 --> 00:43:14.731
It's a little too close to this one though.

00:43:14.731 --> 00:43:17.206
I don't know if I could do them both, but maybe someday.

00:43:17.206 --> 00:43:17.934
You never know.

00:43:17.934 --> 00:43:19.201
Hey, spin off.

00:43:19.949 --> 00:43:21.010
Yeah, it's interesting.

00:43:21.010 --> 00:43:26.750
I read the first three issues as they came out and then I caught up as we were preparing for this conversation.

00:43:27.070 --> 00:43:43.969
I remember, Erin, I can't if I texted you this or if I told you when we were in person in New York, but I was like, this comic, feel like you, Kelly, you and David sort of got into my brain and sort of just like picked out what, not necessarily what I want in a comic, in terms of like storyline, but like how I want a comic to be told, you know?

00:43:43.969 --> 00:43:46.655
Like it is just so funny and...

00:43:46.655 --> 00:43:48.065
energetic and smart.

00:43:48.065 --> 00:43:55.969
It does all those things that I really, really like in comics when I, when I see those happen and you don't see it again, not to poo poo on the big two too much, but I don't feel like you don't get that enough.

00:43:55.969 --> 00:44:01.849
The big two, you kind of have to go for something like this specifically at like a smaller press publisher.

00:44:01.849 --> 00:44:07.952
was curious, you know, you're sitting, you're talking about the collaboration between you and David going into this and going into this series.

00:44:07.952 --> 00:44:10.793
What do you think he really brings to this series?

00:44:10.793 --> 00:44:15.893
There's like, obviously he brings a lot to it, but is there a specific thing that you feel like if you didn't have him on board?

00:44:16.034 --> 00:44:19.266
This series would just not at all reflect what you guys currently have.

00:44:19.373 --> 00:44:20.644
pace for one thing.

00:44:20.644 --> 00:44:33.483
Like, because he's such a high energy human being, it really makes me very deliberate about making sure there's a lot happening and there's a thrust that gets us through every issue.

00:44:33.483 --> 00:44:47.275
And then when we slow down, it feels like, we are slowing down for a moment to look at this thing or to feel this emotion land or, you know, his, think David's energy is the biggest.

00:44:47.275 --> 00:44:48.775
thing that he brings to it.

00:44:48.775 --> 00:44:57.929
But there's also, I don't know how many people could do as well as he does.

00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:01.829
He does with the different, we use objective and subjective storytelling.

00:45:01.829 --> 00:45:09.733
So there's the objective style that is David's style.

00:45:09.733 --> 00:45:18.748
And then he has developed an art style for the mother character and an art style for the son character.

00:45:18.869 --> 00:45:30.777
And they are distinct enough that you can recognize them as different from one another and different from the subjective style or objective style rather.

00:45:30.817 --> 00:45:36.260
But they're alike enough that you can put them on the same page and it all works.

00:45:36.260 --> 00:45:42.085
um And that's really, that's deceptively hard to do.

00:45:42.085 --> 00:45:45.588
And he makes it look very easy.

00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:54.914
I 100 % agree with that, because that's one of my favorite things about FML so far, is the pacing and the different kind of perspectives all told.

00:45:54.914 --> 00:45:59.356
I don't know, it feels like it could be complex.

00:45:59.356 --> 00:46:04.498
Like when you look at the pages, you're like, this could be a very complex story that you're about to jump into.

00:46:04.498 --> 00:46:10.500
But at the same time, it's so fluid and seamless and just meshes with everything in the style.

00:46:10.500 --> 00:46:14.547
I don't know, I enjoyed it very much reading through it, but.

00:46:14.547 --> 00:46:20.420
Um, Kelly, it turns out that you're the high priestess of profound single sentence paradox.

00:46:22.702 --> 00:46:24.458
I'm going have that put on my business card.

00:46:24.458 --> 00:46:25.288
Yes.

00:46:25.293 --> 00:46:28.545
ah Because here's what you said leading up to the release of issue one.

00:46:28.545 --> 00:46:33.760
You said there's a difference between what something is and what it feels like.

00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:37.273
FML is about the windchill and not the temperature.

00:46:37.273 --> 00:46:39.244
And I love that quote.

00:46:39.244 --> 00:46:45.548
uh How do you properly capture what something feels like without directly telling the reader what the feeling is?

00:46:45.548 --> 00:46:52.414
Or do you just come out and say what the feeling is and then create a write of a comic that illustrates that feeling?

00:46:52.942 --> 00:47:29.338
No, I mean, think the reason I couldn't do my one crazy night story at the time I wanted to do it was because I was so swimming in this moment of feeling like, and it's not a moment, it's been several years now of feeling like, you know, suddenly the world was coming at me on blast and having my kids, my kids are now 15 and 18 and they are, you know, what is it for them to have their childhoods interrupted by this global pandemic?

00:47:29.338 --> 00:47:48.177
And how am I simultaneously honest with them, giving them the space and the protection that they need to feel safe so that they can enjoy their childhoods and develop as rational, productive, pro-social human beings?

00:47:48.697 --> 00:47:50.318
you know, and these were...

00:47:50.318 --> 00:47:53.806
And also, I had this feeling of...

00:47:53.806 --> 00:48:05.126
What do I have to say in this moment when everything is off the rails and it's all coming at us a hundred miles an hour every day?

00:48:05.126 --> 00:48:07.146
I don't know what to add to this.

00:48:07.146 --> 00:48:11.606
You know, it was just a, like, I don't have any words of wisdom for anybody.

00:48:11.606 --> 00:48:16.826
And so there was a little bit of surrender in that.

00:48:16.885 --> 00:48:28.786
And that I think a lot of what FML is just coming to terms with this idea that we're all doing the best we can, that this is what the world feels like right now.

00:48:29.847 --> 00:48:35.211
you know, when last night, the conversation I was having with the academics about Historia, we were talking about tragedy.

00:48:35.211 --> 00:48:39.514
And when I was a kid, and it will translate this into nerd.

00:48:39.514 --> 00:48:53.492
So if you, um if you take, you know, the Wrath of Khan and the Kobayashi Maru scenario, when I was 12 years old, uh If you don't know what the Kobayashi-Muru scenario is, you guys, should probably Google it.

00:48:53.492 --> 00:48:57.769
um It's a good learning experience for everybody that's listening that doesn't know what that is.

00:48:57.769 --> 00:48:59.813
It's an unwinnable simulation.

00:48:59.813 --> 00:49:03.057
Okay, it's a scenario where there's not supposed to be an outcome.

00:49:03.057 --> 00:49:05.041
But there's one person who did beat it.

00:49:05.041 --> 00:49:06.262
I won't name names.

00:49:06.262 --> 00:49:08.427
Okay, so I will name names.

00:49:08.427 --> 00:49:09.969
Captain Kirk.

00:49:10.047 --> 00:49:11.693
James Tiberius Kirk.

00:49:11.693 --> 00:49:16.474
Yes, beats the Kobayashi Maru scenario.

00:49:17.074 --> 00:49:26.054
And when you're 12 years old, you see that and you're like, yeah, you know, he's thinking outside of the box.

00:49:26.253 --> 00:49:29.974
And, know, there is no such thing as an unwinnable situation.

00:49:29.974 --> 00:49:32.193
You just don't play by their rules.

00:49:32.193 --> 00:49:39.233
And then you're 50 and you're like, no, he fucking cheated.

00:49:40.425 --> 00:49:53.264
He reprogrammed the scenario so you could win it, thereby avoiding the test because what they were testing was not, can you win?

00:49:53.264 --> 00:49:57.695
What they were testing was who are you in an unwinnable situation?

00:49:58.396 --> 00:50:00.197
What are the choices that you make?

00:50:00.197 --> 00:50:03.018
The test was of your character.

00:50:03.820 --> 00:50:07.922
And he failed, being unwilling.

00:50:08.302 --> 00:50:16.121
to face reality or unwilling to enter a fight you cannot win is immaturity.

00:50:16.262 --> 00:50:23.222
And bringing it back to Greece, Martha Nussbaum has this book that I love called The Fragility of Goodness.

00:50:23.322 --> 00:50:35.903
One of the things that she sort of introduced, I think I saw her in a video talking about this, but she was saying like, no, you're not as a modern human being.

00:50:35.903 --> 00:50:42.079
Or even as an ancient human being, you're not going to have to choose between the life of your daughter and your army.

00:50:42.079 --> 00:50:55.889
But you will have to choose, perhaps, between showing up for a meeting that you really have to be at for your job or being at your kid's play where they really want you to be there.

00:50:55.889 --> 00:51:02.054
You are going to fail someone because you cannot reschedule these things and you cannot be in two places at once.

00:51:02.054 --> 00:51:03.797
So who are you?

00:51:03.797 --> 00:51:05.442
How do you make that choice?

00:51:05.442 --> 00:51:07.702
how do you navigate that situation?

00:51:07.702 --> 00:51:11.927
Who we are as people in fights we can't win matters.

00:51:12.168 --> 00:51:18.913
And that, I think, is a bit of the DNA of FML.

00:51:18.913 --> 00:51:21.735
I can only do so much.

00:51:21.735 --> 00:51:23.335
I don't have...

00:51:23.496 --> 00:51:25.461
I don't know how we change the election.

00:51:25.461 --> 00:51:28.501
I don't know how we make sure that we're taking care of people.

00:51:28.501 --> 00:51:35.525
I don't know how to handle a budget or what our taxes should be, but...

00:51:35.583 --> 00:51:44.434
I know that we have to look after one another and I know that we have to be honest with our children and with each other.

00:51:44.434 --> 00:51:52.009
And I know that we just kind of have to do the best we can every day and try to put together a good life that way.

00:51:52.009 --> 00:51:54.458
And there is no right answer.

00:51:55.159 --> 00:52:09.347
And so that's what the book ends up being about is trying to navigate this moment where it feels surreal, the windchill is just nuts.

00:52:09.347 --> 00:52:13.666
Every one of these answers has been way longer than what you wanted or intended, but sorry.

00:52:13.666 --> 00:52:14.076
No, no, no.

00:52:14.076 --> 00:52:14.626
Here's the thing.

00:52:14.626 --> 00:52:17.820
We want all the new, we want the long answers.

00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:18.269
Absolutely.

00:52:18.269 --> 00:52:18.690
Totally.

00:52:18.690 --> 00:52:19.771
Yeah.

00:52:19.771 --> 00:52:20.782
And I totally agree.

00:52:20.782 --> 00:52:31.902
Aaron and I, again, we're going full circle here, but being two folks who are prior military and, you know, Aaron being, you know, into his thirties, again, military, prior military, military brat.

00:52:31.902 --> 00:52:34.324
I'm a white dude in the mid straight white dude in the Midwest.

00:52:34.324 --> 00:52:37.065
Like, like I should be voting for this.

00:52:37.065 --> 00:52:42.126
And yet I see all the craziness around us and I can not do nothing but plan.

00:52:42.126 --> 00:52:46.427
for the eventual argument I'm gonna have with my uncle at the upcoming family event.

00:52:46.427 --> 00:52:53.791
I'm like, in my head I'm thinking like, here are the six things that I can say to really get him, you know, in this current landscape we're in.

00:52:53.791 --> 00:52:58.012
And to go on what you were saying there, Kelly, I'm probably wrong for thinking that.

00:52:58.012 --> 00:53:05.034
Like uh as well-intentioned as it might be, I should be like, maybe there's like a valuable conversation to be had instead.

00:53:05.115 --> 00:53:11.157
Or maybe I should spend my time instead going to an actual protest or.

00:53:11.398 --> 00:53:22.510
helping educate someone who maybe just wants to learn more, maybe my younger sister who wants to learn more about politics and the world around us outside of our white body, you know, like these are all things that could maybe do better.

00:53:22.510 --> 00:53:31.853
It's about where you your energy, you know, they're not mutually exclusive, but they're not tied together being a decent human being.

00:53:31.853 --> 00:53:41.445
then being, I'll say it like being an American, there's a difference between being a patriot, which is somebody who loves what America was built for, what's the foundation of it.

00:53:41.445 --> 00:53:47.197
Then there's nationalism, which is we all fucking know is terrible.

00:53:47.197 --> 00:53:52.557
but we should all be focusing on being decent human beings.

00:53:52.695 --> 00:53:57.429
who are also Americans or who are also wherever you're from and taking care of each other.

00:53:57.429 --> 00:53:58.570
That should be the foundation.

00:53:58.570 --> 00:54:06.414
shouldn't be the uh commercialism or, it shouldn't be your loyalties.

00:54:06.414 --> 00:54:09.427
It should be loyalties as a human to being just a good person.

00:54:09.427 --> 00:54:11.208
So at least this is my opinion.

00:54:11.208 --> 00:54:14.865
Yeah, I retired last year from the army.

00:54:14.865 --> 00:54:21.204
I spent 20 years, the last 13 of it was as a public affairs.

00:54:21.204 --> 00:54:23.780
uh basically chief of public affairs.

00:54:23.780 --> 00:54:25.880
So I had a lot of time.

00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:27.451
I actually worked with Stars and Stripes.

00:54:27.451 --> 00:54:30.972
I wrote for their newspaper for a couple of years while a station in Germany the second time.

00:54:30.972 --> 00:54:32.873
oh yeah.

00:54:32.873 --> 00:54:34.753
So I mean, I've seen the perspectives.

00:54:34.753 --> 00:54:44.295
I talked to a lot of our partner forces and you know, and again, we could talk about politics and the military and the machine of.

00:54:44.295 --> 00:54:48.137
uh I'll just say this.

00:54:48.137 --> 00:54:49.958
I want to go back to the.

00:54:50.510 --> 00:54:53.130
about the difference between the wind chill and the temperature.

00:54:53.130 --> 00:54:59.634
And I absolutely agree with that is a great idea for anybody that is a storyteller.

00:54:59.634 --> 00:55:06.536
When you can get your audience to feel something without telling them what it is, is an insane accomplishment.

00:55:06.536 --> 00:55:10.117
And I did feel that several times while reading FML.

00:55:10.137 --> 00:55:14.619
And there's just those moments where I was getting like anxiety in the pit of my stomach.

00:55:14.780 --> 00:55:17.081
And I'm just like, I don't know how they're gonna get through this.

00:55:17.081 --> 00:55:19.347
Like I am invested in these characters.

00:55:19.347 --> 00:55:24.943
even though they're, they're completely again, like out of the box, they're, they're just nuts.

00:55:24.943 --> 00:55:29.807
They're all like, and I use the word zany very often, but all these characters are so unique.

00:55:29.807 --> 00:55:39.385
And when they get into the different, you know, situations in this book, it's so great because you know, the writing is there where it shows that you can feel something without naming it.

00:55:39.385 --> 00:55:41.461
And that's, that's incredible.

00:55:41.461 --> 00:55:43.483
Yeah, I love them so much.

00:55:43.483 --> 00:55:46.063
This cast is sort of immediately.

00:55:46.063 --> 00:56:09.277
um Taking it back to my daughter again, there was a point where she and I were talking about the book and we were talking about the fact that the characters started out as being based on our family, but they've moved away from that.

00:56:09.277 --> 00:56:11.318
and are kind of their own people now.

00:56:11.318 --> 00:56:17.704
And she was like, so Lil is me and Riley is Henry.

00:56:17.704 --> 00:56:24.867
And so your mom, and I was like, yes, but also I'll tell you a secret.

00:56:24.947 --> 00:56:26.059
I'm all of them.

00:56:26.059 --> 00:56:34.534
Because we never really fully escape our own perspective and...

00:56:34.891 --> 00:56:41.065
And when I'm writing any of these characters, I'm really trying to see the world through their eyes as best I can.

00:56:41.065 --> 00:56:45.467
And so I feel attached to all of them.

00:56:45.788 --> 00:56:48.730
The easiest to write for me is probably Patty.

00:56:48.730 --> 00:56:55.594
um But Lydia is the penny of this book.

00:56:55.594 --> 00:57:02.974
Like in Bitch Planet, the character that everyone loves is Pennyroll.

00:57:02.974 --> 00:57:06.856
And Lydia is the one that everybody seems to...

00:57:07.153 --> 00:57:09.780
And that's kind of fun because she came out of nowhere.

00:57:09.780 --> 00:57:11.099
don't know where...

00:57:11.981 --> 00:57:15.583
She's not based on anybody.

00:57:15.833 --> 00:57:25.811
And she was just an extra that raised her hand in that scene and then was like, ooh, let's see where this goes.

00:57:25.851 --> 00:57:27.762
And then she was part of the band.

00:57:27.762 --> 00:57:27.981
it.

00:57:27.981 --> 00:57:31.367
It just took its own center stage.

00:57:31.367 --> 00:57:36.043
Somehow a character in your story has main character energy.

00:57:36.135 --> 00:57:37.387
And I love that.

00:57:37.387 --> 00:57:37.817
love that.

00:57:37.817 --> 00:57:39.057
Patty cake is my favorite.

00:57:39.057 --> 00:57:40.048
I got to be honest, Patty.

00:57:40.048 --> 00:57:47.855
There's that scene where and I'm not going to say I'm not going to no spoilers, but there's a scene where Patty cake gets like five minutes to herself when she never does.

00:57:47.855 --> 00:57:50.898
And she just goes into her office and just starts dancing.

00:57:50.898 --> 00:57:56.501
And like that, I love that so much because sometimes you just got to fucking dance, man.

00:57:56.501 --> 00:58:08.099
Yes, and David made me some uh stickers, like phone stickers of those three patties dancing.

00:58:08.099 --> 00:58:10.443
I love them and use them probably a little too much.

00:58:10.443 --> 00:58:16.085
uh You guys like you had a like a printout of stickers, right?

00:58:16.085 --> 00:58:18.168
What in one of the issues in the back?

00:58:18.168 --> 00:58:19.815
Was it that was the actual dances?

00:58:19.815 --> 00:58:25.460
I'm forgetting now, but And I think we had a, we have a Lil Paper Doll.

00:58:25.460 --> 00:58:27.931
Yeah.

00:58:27.931 --> 00:58:35.958
And then we have, David did a sheet of stickers of the FML characters as cats.

00:58:35.958 --> 00:58:36.778
Oh.

00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:44.126
Which is so dumb and cute and also fucking fantastic.

00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:45.539
that is awesome.

00:58:45.539 --> 00:58:49.713
God, that needs to go into mass production ASAP.

00:58:49.713 --> 00:58:51.438
love Patty cake.

00:58:51.438 --> 00:59:07.365
So there's mom and Glory and Riley and there's Lydia and Susan and Savvy and dad and Lil and Grim.

00:59:08.032 --> 00:59:12.853
Ooh, it's Caddy Found it.

00:59:13.681 --> 00:59:16.882
Kelly, we have, we have just taken way too much of time here.

00:59:16.882 --> 00:59:19.425
We told you an hour and we're at one 10.

00:59:19.425 --> 00:59:21.806
Let me ask you one final question here before we get to Jennifer.

00:59:21.806 --> 00:59:22.407
That's okay.

00:59:22.407 --> 00:59:31.081
Um, and I apologize if this is sort of gotcha journalism a little bit, please feel free to expand on this idea or shut it down however you want to.

00:59:31.081 --> 00:59:33.474
But this idea sort of centers on legacy.

00:59:33.474 --> 00:59:33.923
Okay.

00:59:33.923 --> 00:59:39.541
And that might be a big question, but you know, in a lot of ways, as we spoke about in this conversation, it kind of feels like FML.

00:59:39.541 --> 00:59:40.742
and pretty deadly.

00:59:40.742 --> 00:59:46.068
They feel like the most Kelly Sue books in your entire bibliography, in my opinion.

00:59:46.068 --> 00:59:51.632
You've got FML is this hilarious sort of fever dream that just refuses to follow the rules.

00:59:51.713 --> 00:59:59.079
And then you also have pretty deadly, this beautiful meditation on, it's sort of set in this mythological alternate reality of the West.

00:59:59.260 --> 01:00:13.309
However, it seems like, and you can totally tell me if you see something different, but it feels like when people talk about your career, Often what happens is people bring up Captain Marvel or they'll bring up Historia or something that you've worked on at the Big Two.

01:00:13.309 --> 01:00:17.340
So I'm just curious, I'm sure you're proud of your Big Two work.

01:00:17.601 --> 01:00:25.076
Does it ever peeve you a little bit that these are like the first thing they bring up as sort of your IP Big Two books as sort of like the centerpiece of your career?

01:00:25.166 --> 01:00:29.226
because here's an obnoxious thing to say, because I write everything like I own it.

01:00:29.226 --> 01:00:44.760
um think what does irritate me is if I had to rank my writing, think Historia might be the best writing I've ever done.

01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:48.012
And it annoys me that I don't own it.

01:00:48.626 --> 01:00:52.094
I mean, how do you compare something like writing, right?

01:00:52.094 --> 01:00:56.826
But FML takes so many more risks.

01:00:56.826 --> 01:00:59.945
It's an entirely different thing.

01:00:59.945 --> 01:01:02.485
I'm extraordinarily proud of it.

01:01:02.485 --> 01:01:11.505
But because of the nature of it, you know, like, I think issue five's a little weak, you know?

01:01:11.505 --> 01:01:14.726
And I know why it's a little weak.

01:01:14.726 --> 01:01:21.545
You know, it's trying to be a monthly comic, which I will never be good at because it takes me time to figure stuff out.

01:01:21.545 --> 01:01:24.126
I'm not a fast writer and I won't.

01:01:24.152 --> 01:01:25.838
Just fucking turn it in.

01:01:26.286 --> 01:01:28.402
serious by the way, just want to say that.

01:01:28.402 --> 01:01:33.769
FML, there's no way you could do this, I don't think at least in healthy way on a monthly basis.

01:01:33.769 --> 01:01:38.992
You know, I can get about four issues out in a row and then I can't.

01:01:38.992 --> 01:01:43.393
And then something happens and I need to figure something out.

01:01:43.474 --> 01:01:45.394
I eat through that time.

01:01:45.454 --> 01:01:47.945
It's not like every four issues, I have a problem.

01:01:47.945 --> 01:01:51.617
It's not, it's we bank for issues and we're way ahead.

01:01:51.617 --> 01:02:00.500
And then I run into problems that take more time and I end up eating away at that lead time that we had.

01:02:00.500 --> 01:02:01.440
It's just the way I'm built.

01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:11.539
If I could change it, if I could wiggle my nose and write faster, I would, but I can't and it won't sacrifice either the ambition or the quality of it.

01:02:11.561 --> 01:02:15.735
And I don't think I nailed issue five and that just is what it is.

01:02:15.735 --> 01:02:21.460
And it irritates me, but it's a far harder swing.

01:02:21.460 --> 01:02:23.291
FML then.

01:02:23.291 --> 01:02:40.548
oh Historia, even though Historia is very bombastic and the artist just did masterwork, all three of them, but like I'm the kid that did a puppet show of the Oresteia in fourth grade.

01:02:40.641 --> 01:02:42.309
know, so like.

01:02:43.369 --> 01:02:44.572
somebody in the background laugh.

01:02:44.572 --> 01:02:45.494
Yeah.

01:02:46.875 --> 01:02:49.427
So in a way, I was born to do Historia.

01:02:49.427 --> 01:02:51.998
You know, I've been training for that my whole life.

01:02:52.179 --> 01:03:00.786
There's a uh different, riskier, more difficult thing with FML, but I think I've executed.

01:03:00.786 --> 01:03:07.010
If I could only give somebody one thing as a writing sample, I would give them Historia.

01:03:07.010 --> 01:03:12.427
It's less of a stretch, but it's executed about as well as...

01:03:12.427 --> 01:03:15.498
I did what I wanted to do there.

01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:19.920
And I think we stuck all of the landings.

01:03:20.900 --> 01:03:23.141
Yeah, a couple of them.

01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:27.442
so I'm very proud of that.

01:03:27.442 --> 01:03:34.463
But I don't take a job if I don't think I have a point of view.

01:03:34.523 --> 01:03:38.914
know, the Marvel universe is the longest running continuous narrative in human history.

01:03:38.914 --> 01:03:40.192
And I got to sew on that quilt.

01:03:40.192 --> 01:03:41.485
And that's a big deal.

01:03:41.831 --> 01:03:43.514
So no shame.

01:03:43.514 --> 01:03:44.697
It doesn't bug me.

01:03:44.697 --> 01:03:53.318
It bugs me that I don't own what at the moment I think is my my best work, but I ain't dead yet That was going to be my next point.

01:03:53.318 --> 01:03:54.057
You're not dead yet.

01:03:54.057 --> 01:03:57.170
got plenty of plenty of future.

01:03:57.170 --> 01:03:58.603
Who knows what's going to happen?

01:03:58.603 --> 01:04:01.255
Because I mean, you're you're killing it with FML.

01:04:01.255 --> 01:04:02.576
Chris gave me homework.

01:04:02.576 --> 01:04:05.139
He sometimes gives me homework before the interview.

01:04:05.139 --> 01:04:08.181
So it'll sometimes be stuff I've read something I haven't read.

01:04:08.181 --> 01:04:10.384
um I have not I have I'll say this.

01:04:10.384 --> 01:04:17.195
I have not liked a Captain Marvel comic, but I am enjoying your run your your different.

01:04:17.195 --> 01:04:23.621
runs of Captain Marvel and I'm finding out that Chris actually knows how to suggest things properly.

01:04:24.804 --> 01:04:26.188
Kidding, it's sarcasm, buddy.

01:04:26.188 --> 01:04:52.594
uh Kelly, I think the sort of the caveat to you not owning the character is that in a lot of ways, like Swamp Thing with Alan Moore and uh Dennis O'Neill with the question, no one for the rest of time, I don't think, will be able to say the name Captain Marvel without saying Kelly Sudeconik in that same breath, because you have created, think, sort of the modern, I mean, and I know you get a lot of you give a lot of credit to, I think, with Steve Wacker, the editor on the book as well.

01:04:52.621 --> 01:05:01.452
And then obviously a dextrose soy on the book there at the beginning and your other, you know, know, Andrade, Emma Rios, Javid Lopez.

01:05:01.452 --> 01:05:05.376
no, a ton of really extraordinary collaborators on that book.

01:05:05.376 --> 01:05:13.641
But yeah, I mean, no matter what else I accomplish, Captain Marvel will be at least in the first sentence of my obituary.

01:05:13.641 --> 01:05:16.523
um And I'm fine with that.

01:05:17.324 --> 01:05:19.746
Yeah, I got no problem with that.

01:05:19.746 --> 01:05:24.492
And every time I do a Khan appearance, someone shows up and tells me what that character.

01:05:24.492 --> 01:05:29.326
meant to them and now we're at this point where they'll be like, when I was a kid and I was like, wait, what?

01:05:29.326 --> 01:05:31.411
Shut up! Hold on, wait, no, don't do that.

01:05:31.411 --> 01:05:32.882
Yeah.

01:05:32.882 --> 01:05:35.802
But that means a lot to me.

01:05:35.802 --> 01:05:47.626
was also, you know, it's the first time I ever saw a little boy at a con tell me his favorite character was a female superhero.

01:05:47.626 --> 01:05:50.547
And that like that changes things.

01:05:50.547 --> 01:05:52.708
And that felt really good.

01:05:53.568 --> 01:05:55.949
So there's no there's no shame.

01:05:55.949 --> 01:05:57.179
There's no irritation.

01:05:57.179 --> 01:06:01.260
I'm pleased and proud and honored.

01:06:01.518 --> 01:06:22.724
um And hey, as we're pivoting out of this and wrapping up, I'm working right now on the fourth arc of Pretty Deadly with Emma, um which is about the character of Big Alice and it's a Viking tale.

01:06:22.724 --> 01:06:30.606
Also, we announced this at Málaga, but I don't think anybody picked up on it.

01:06:30.606 --> 01:06:38.186
But I was talking to Matt about the second arc of FML and what I wanted to do.

01:06:38.326 --> 01:06:41.565
And he was like, well, you know what you should do?

01:06:41.565 --> 01:06:43.585
I was like, what should I do?

01:06:44.585 --> 01:06:46.273
His mouth has good ideas again.

01:06:46.273 --> 01:06:46.943
Yeah, I know.

01:06:46.943 --> 01:06:50.206
Fucking rife with them.

01:06:50.206 --> 01:06:51.047
It's very annoying.

01:06:51.047 --> 01:06:53.338
Like they're Spaniards and their prettiness.

01:06:53.338 --> 01:06:57.442
um But he's like, you know what?

01:06:57.442 --> 01:06:59.802
should you should let me write it.

01:06:59.983 --> 01:07:02.605
And I was like, what?

01:07:03.465 --> 01:07:07.608
And then he was serious.

01:07:08.048 --> 01:07:13.833
It's like the first arc is about the mom and the son.

01:07:13.833 --> 01:07:15.445
Let me do the second arc.

01:07:15.445 --> 01:07:18.246
and let it be about the dad and the daughter.

01:07:18.585 --> 01:07:34.114
And I was like, that feels very unsafe and uncomfortable in a way that is like, oh, as an artist, that's the direction I should go versus unsafe and uncomfortable.

01:07:34.114 --> 01:07:35.474
Like I need to run away from it.

01:07:35.474 --> 01:07:37.554
There's a guy with a knife in the alley.

01:07:37.554 --> 01:07:44.927
um And so we talked to David about it and we talked to Dark Horse about it and we don't have it.

01:07:45.195 --> 01:08:07.487
calendared for when it'll, I can't tell you when it's going to come out, but we've been talking story and we know where it's going and we know how we're going to make use of the centering then of those two characters instead of, and I think it's kind of neat because I don't think anybody's ever done anything like that before.

01:08:07.655 --> 01:08:08.876
No, that's really exciting.

01:08:08.876 --> 01:08:09.556
Absolutely.

01:08:09.556 --> 01:08:12.938
Well, you know, Kelly, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here on the show.

01:08:12.938 --> 01:08:14.981
Again, as we said earlier, we took way too much of your time.

01:08:14.981 --> 01:08:16.862
told you an hour, we're 20 minutes over that.

01:08:16.862 --> 01:08:18.443
So first of all, apologies for that.

01:08:18.443 --> 01:08:22.157
But also want to say, my gosh, just so great.

01:08:22.157 --> 01:08:29.573
and you said a moment ago how you had a little boy come up to you and tell you that like Captain Marvel was the first book, our first character, first favorite character of his.

01:08:29.573 --> 01:08:31.573
And that's first time you ever had that happen to you.

01:08:31.573 --> 01:08:42.395
I want to say and I might be there might be a little bit of Mandela effect, but I want to say your Capture Marvel run might be the first sort of female led book that I read and actually like really truly loved as well.

01:08:42.395 --> 01:08:43.845
So there's three Aaron, three A's.

01:08:43.845 --> 01:08:45.417
So one more.

01:08:45.417 --> 01:08:54.538
um You know, after picking up, as I said earlier, after picking up FML number one, I knew that was going to be a series that I wanted to not only recommend to Aaron, but also continue on with.

01:08:54.538 --> 01:08:58.199
And I think that to end this conversation, there's only one proper way to do it.

01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:04.942
eh And I need to tell everyone here that's listening, stay sharp, stay hidden and never forget.

01:09:04.942 --> 01:09:08.442
Salvation lies in the heaviest of metal and the darkest of ink.

01:09:08.622 --> 01:09:09.282
Yeah.

01:09:09.282 --> 01:09:10.101
That's right.

01:09:10.101 --> 01:09:11.061
All right.

01:09:11.061 --> 01:09:11.902
Well, Kelly, anything else?

01:09:11.902 --> 01:09:14.702
You did a little bit of teasing there, both with Pretty Deadly and FML.

01:09:14.702 --> 01:09:18.818
Is there anything else you want to sort of tease or broadcast before we let you go?

01:09:18.818 --> 01:09:25.372
Yeah, there's one other uh big project that I'm working on, but it is uh not announced and won't be for a while.

01:09:25.372 --> 01:09:27.936
But I will say it's going to be in a graphic novel format.

01:09:28.942 --> 01:09:33.622
We'll press end on this and then we're going to mine Kelly for some info.

01:09:33.622 --> 01:09:34.202
Just kidding.

01:09:34.202 --> 01:09:35.521
We'll do that.

01:09:35.521 --> 01:09:36.801
Well, Kelly, again, what a pleasure.

01:09:36.801 --> 01:09:37.601
So great to have you on.

01:09:37.601 --> 01:09:40.841
love to have you back on at some point down the road.

01:09:40.942 --> 01:09:43.515
until then, take care and we'll talk to you then.

01:09:43.703 --> 01:09:44.676
Thank you.