INTERVIEW: Christopher Priest

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Hi, this is Christopher Priest, writer of Marvel Knights, The World to Come, Superman Lost, and Vampirella.

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And you are listening to the Oblivion Bar podcast.

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you Welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast with your host Chris Hacker and Aaron Knowles.

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Hello everyone and welcome to the Oblivion Bar podcast.

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I am Chris Hacker, one of your co-hosts here and joining me is my BFF, Aaron Knowles.

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Hello.

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Welcome back everybody to the Oblivion Bar podcast.

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This week on the show, we are joined by an absolute legend.

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Someone who has been in the industry for, and we say it in this conversation, right?

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It'll be 50 years in two years.

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uh He is a co-creator of the, he's one of the co-creators of the Milestone Universe.

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He is a co-creator of Quantum and Woody.

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He has impressive longstanding runs on Deathstroke and Conan the Barbarian and many, many others.

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Aaron, you look like you're about to say something.

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What you to say?

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Like we'll sometimes throw legend around sort of maybe cavalier, especially if it's like someone who really like and admire in the industry.

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But Christopher Priest, who was on the show this week, he is a legend with a capital L in the comic book medium.

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He started off as an intern at Marvel, Marvel comics in 1978 and he took a brief break for like two years in the nineties, but has been in the comic industry this entire time since then.

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And he has joined us today, Aaron, to talk about not only Marvel Knights, The World to Come, which is the reintroduction into the Marvel Knights universe over at Marvel, but also Superman Lost.

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We actually talk about Superman Lost a little bit more than I thought we were.

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No, no, no, no, no, no, ability for that.

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um, that's I, know, it was such a great conversation.

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Like I am, I did not really like fathom how excited I was to talk to him.

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And so this was, whoo, man, this was, this was an experience.

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Like this is, this is one of those ones where it's like, we do this show because we love to talk to people.

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love to talk to creators.

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And it feels so genuine and it feels so natural when you get people that are just like, just like people.

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And then every once in a while you get these creators on that are just like, uh, I'm talking to whom, right?

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You know, and it's just like, Oh my God, it's like, it's like, I w what comes to mind is that galactic shadow and the fantastic four trailer where it's just like, yeah, that's the guy, you know, Yeah.

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And you know, we've said many times here on the show that in the beginning of the oblivion bar, we first started talking to creators, Philip Kennedy Johnson, being the first creator we ever had on the show.

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We have slowly, but definitely, you know, gotten to the point now where we just see these folks as talented nerds.

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try to have the most friendly down to earth conversation.

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And I think we have that here with Christopher Priest, ah who he, you know, we'll call him priest in the conversation.

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He prefers to be called priest.

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ah It's hard not to feel daunted by this conversation in preparation.

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And I even say it when preparing to talk to Mr.

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Priest about his career, again, almost a 50 year long career in comics.

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Where do you start?

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know, like he's here to talk about Marvel Knights, but in reality, we could have had a hour long conversation about a lot of at least 10 topics within his career.

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know, I wanted there to be a definite sense realization on Black Panther because His Marvel Knights Black Panther run is one of my all time favorites.

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There was a time, Aaron, leading up to the movie's release with Chadwick Boseman with Marvel Studios, where I went back and read a lot of the Jungle Action, a lot of the Stan Lee and Jack Kirby stuff from Fantastic Four, some of the Don McGregor stuff.

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And then eventually, I would say that Christopher Priest's run, I think, is the beginning of the modern day Black Panther.

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His first arc, the client, through Marvel Knights.

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him and Mark Teixeira is what I think is sort of like modern Black Panther.

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And we talk about what is like his approach.

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There's a lot of humor in this book.

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If you read any Black Panther prior to Christopher Priest and Mark's run on that series, it is a serious political drama where it's a lot of like inner family turmoil.

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It's kind of a hard read in 2025, but when you finally get to that Marvel Knights Christopher Priest run, there's like a little bit of levity to it.

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Mm-hmm.

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That is really refreshing.

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I feel like we should just get into the conversation because I feel like I feel like I'm having a hard time uh articulating how incredible it was to talk to him about his runs.

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I don't want to say his runs.

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Nick's that to talk to him about his career.

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Right.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And, you know, we didn't talk about it at all in this conversation, Aaron, but I know you're a big Deathstroke fan.

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I honestly believe that Christopher Priest has run on that on Deathstroke.

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He started off, I think he was the first writer for the DC Rebirth back in like 2017.

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And he did, I want to say it was like 40, 50 issues, a long run.

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Like he was when, when DC Rebirth had like done its course and it was, it was literally, I highly recommend it.

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Uh, but when it had run its course and like, DC Rebirth, a lot of the titles were starting to sort of refurbish and new creative teams were jumping on these characters.

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You still had Christopher Priest and Carlo, and I always say his name incorrectly, but it's the same artist on Superman Lost.

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Carlo Pagulian, I think it's how you say his name, but I could be incorrect.

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Pagulian.

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uh Those two, they got Isendure nominations for both Deathstroke and then eventually Superman Lost.

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I loved like respectful because again, we tend to focus hyper focus on one or the other, like the artist or the writer.

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And in this case, like we had this really in depth conversation with him as the writer, but he was so humble about making sure that we throw some credit, throw the uh proper amount of credit and respect over to Carlos about everything that they've put into the creations as well.

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again, just all around an amazing individual.

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Absolutely.

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We're excited to bring this conversation you guys.

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Before we do that, quick shameless plug.

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Please go over to patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod.

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That's the best way to support the show.

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Obviously you could do it the free way.

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You could give us a quick five star review.

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Only five star reviews, please.

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No, four, three, two, definitely not a one.

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But definitely five.

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If you like the show, give it a five.

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If you don't like the show, don't rate it, please.

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Only five stars.

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it.

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Hey, I know you're doing it.

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Listen.

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listening right now, don't, don't you do it five stars only.

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Okay.

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But over on Patreon, patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod.

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have plenty of tiers.

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have one, two, five and $10 tiers.

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We also have a free tier that you can free things.

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you have seven day free trial.

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You check it out.

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I can't do a false satellite view.

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I don't have that vocal capacity.

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like down deep like for That's a baritone, right?

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uh Over there on Patreon, you can stop sidetracking me here.

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I'm trying to tell the people about Patreon.

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I love talking to my best friend.

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Over there, you can get access to our bonus episode each week.

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call the grid grid grid grid.

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You're supposed to, So you're going to do the echo this time.

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I usually do the echo where it's basically just what you're kind of hearing right now.

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It's half an hour, extra half an hour of this.

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Generally we do more than an hour, right?

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Like usually an hour plus.

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Who can cap that that conversation?

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Dumb shit too.

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It's like all it's all types of stuff.

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It's you know, it's great.

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So yeah, don't forget the the transcripts.

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Yes.

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What we prepare each interview again, this conversation we just had with Mr.

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Priest, you'll get access to see how we prepare for each interview, every show, uh, you get early access to these episodes.

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So if you're on the patron, you might be listening to this early right now.

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Tell them about all the free stuff.

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Oh, also it's not really free, but if you join the patron, you'll, you'll get care packages and you'll definitely make out on the amount that is sent to you.

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Uh, it is kind of free cause you get it randomly and often.

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but I don't know why I'm still whispering.

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Back to my radio voice.

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You'll get random packages from us, stickers, comics, Blu-rays.

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We've sent off original art.

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Shout out to Brad Bell and his original Stan Sakai sketch.

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You never know what we're going to send.

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We also send things abroad.

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Shout out to Mac over in New Zealand.

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We've sent him some things.

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So that Kiwi, that our favorite Kiwi, but yeah, so patreon.com forward slash oblivion bar pod.

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If you enjoy the oblivion bar, your support would mean so much to us.

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So Without further ado, we've done enough preamble.

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Let's go ahead and get into this conversation with the one and only Christopher Priest.

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Are you a long time comic fan?

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Is your pull list longer than your grocery list?

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Or are you someone interested in learning about how comic books are made?

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If any of that sounds like you, then you're my kind of people.

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I'm Bodger Milligan and I host The Short Box, a comic book talk show.

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It's one of the longest running weekly comic book podcasts and it's the best way to feel like you're hanging out in your local comic shop without ever leaving the house.

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Join me and The Short Box Nation every Wednesday for news, reviews, and interviews about comic culture and comic books with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them.

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The Short Box Podcast is available now wherever you get your podcasts.

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This episode is brought to you by Oni Press.

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If you're craving for comics that defy the ordinary and a publisher that not only allows but encourages its creators to tell their story the way they want to, look no further than Oni Press, the loudest thing in color since 1997.

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The first issue was awesome.

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And the second issue comes out May 7th that I mentioned that Dave Chisholm is a genius and we already know how much you love Scott Pilgrim versus the world.

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We know I do, but be on the lookout for the first issue of Dark Regards from multi-hyphenated writer, comedian, actor, musician, Dave Hill and breakout artist Artyom Topolin.

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This first issue tells the tale of how one standup comedian forged a secret online identity as America's first true black metal icon.

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and accidentally started an international incident that almost wiped Gary, Indiana off the map.

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And as somebody who has been to Gary, not all of that quote unquote incident sounds horrible.

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Discover more at onepress.com or visit your local comic shop today.

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And now, this week's special guest.

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Joining us today is the comic book legend who has been working in the comic book medium since 1978.

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He has written character defining runs on Deathstroke, Quantum and Woody, Superman, Conan the Barbarian, and many, many others.

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More impressively, he also helped co-found Milestone Comics and was one of the central architects of the Dakotaverse.

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Along with recent runs on Vampirella and the upcoming Sonya Reborn series on the way, he is also here to discuss Marvel Knights The World to Come, the long-awaited continuation of what many fans considered to be his finest work, his iconic Marvel Knights Black Panther run.

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It is our honor to welcome Priest onto the Oblivion Bar podcast.

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Thank you so much for being here, sir.

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We appreciate you.

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And you know, honestly, I think when we first started setting up this conversation, and I talk about a little bit later on in our conversation, and one of the questions sort of centered around this idea, when looking at the scope of your career, which we are approaching 50 years on in the comics, it's hard to find a pillar to focus on because you've done so much.

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ah Have you found that to be the case when talking to other people, other podcasts, other websites that like, they just don't know how to approach these conversations the way we've had trouble with?

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I don't know.

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think it all depends on what we're promoting at the time.

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So usually like, you know, the publisher will set these things up and like, okay, talk about this.

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Don't talk about anything else.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Well, we're to kind of stick with that same sort of a through line because today, as I mentioned there in the intro, we're going to be talking about Marvel Knights, the world to come.

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You know, in 1998, you were part of that original crew that Joe Casada, Jimmy Pamiati put together for that Marvel Knights imprint.

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And now here in 2025, Marvel Knights looks to be making a big comeback with the six issue mini series.

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Again, the world to come.

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So it's very, very exciting.

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And we were actually, we're talking today, you, myself and Aaron, we're all talking here.

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the day that first issue releases, the Wednesday, June 4th.

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So my first question for you is, how do you feel the reception has been for the return of Marvel Knights?

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I don't know.

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I've been dealing with auto mechanics and a toothache all day.

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So I really haven't been paying attention.

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I've just been really mad because I took my car in for service and they broke my glove box.

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You know, and I took the car in for, for breaks.

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Why are you in my blood?

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So let's have that discussion.

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I really haven't noticed that, you know, I tend to not read reviews of my work.

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I tend not to look at sales figures.

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I tend not to get into any of that stuff.

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I do the publicity because the publisher makes me do it, but I'm not on social media.

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I'm just a schmuck living in the woods who is lucky enough to write comics for a living.

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I don't really, I just tell my editors, look, just tell me when to stop.

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I don't wanna know, are we doing good?

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Oh, we sold a bunch of these.

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didn't sell a bunch of those or, oh, we're in trouble.

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Never tell me we're in trouble because, you know, what do you want?

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What do you want from me?

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We sent the Hulk to a disco because they were trying to get more people to read Black Panther.

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This is like issue 13 or 14 of the original run.

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This is post Marvel nights, you know, and we did a lot of that stuff to, know, because we were just, you know, once we moved over from Marvel nights to the Marvel universe, the book came under a lot of pressure to increase sales.

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And what I've learned uh over the years is that you got to dance with the ones that brung you, you know, and you have to appreciate the audience you have and not just constantly sell them out ah in order to commercialize it or to have the X-Men show up for no reason at all or whatever, you know, to increase sales.

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you know, basically I just tell editors, don't tell me about numbers.

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You know, and I don't read the reviews because even if they're good reviews, then if I believe the good reviews, then I got to believe the bad reviews.

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You know, um, just let me do my job and just tell me when to stop.

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Well, I love Roach.

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I love.

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that approach.

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stay out of the glove box on my car.

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I love it.

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This Han Solo attitudes like never tell me the odds, you know.

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oh Yeah, because all it does is mess with my head when I'm trying to work here.

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Yeah.

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And it's not really your responsibility.

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It's your job to create this.

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And then you just put it out in the world and it's almost like in a way no longer yours.

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It's kind of up to the reader to interpret it however they want, whatever your intentions were are almost sort of like a second fiddle to how the readership takes it, you know?

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And sometimes we win and sometimes we lose.

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So we're doing something with Red Sonja now, it's called Sonja Reborn.

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And that's a perfect example of what you're talking about.

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When we started the Marvel Knights Panther, there was a lot of pushback from so-called Panther purists who were confusing Black Panther with Tarzan.

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They thought he was Tarzan.

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He's this primitive guy that lives in the jungle and he gives a bone through his nose, whatever the story.

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You know, and I had to remind people that Jack Kirby and Stan Lee created this genius inventor and he had all these advanced toys and so forth and this vast wealth.

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And he was the sovereign of this nation, of this independent nation.

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You know, and I had to bring all that back into focus.

00:16:52.626 --> 00:16:57.831
And there was a lot of pushback from people who had become acclimated to Tarzan.

00:16:57.831 --> 00:17:01.812
You know, he's wearing this leotard, he gets beat up, gets, you know, back up.

00:17:01.812 --> 00:17:03.333
No, we're not doing that anymore.

00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:12.316
You know, so the red Sonia thing will be like a real culture shock as well, because it's just like, you know, why do you let priest, know, why do you leave him alone in the room with our characters?

00:17:12.316 --> 00:17:32.557
You know, I tend to be a little subversive, but I think that every now and then some subversion is good for, you know, for the system to wake up and to also invite a larger audience, maybe people who've never read Black Panther or who had no reason to read Red Sonia.

00:17:32.557 --> 00:17:37.298
And it's like, well, you know, here, let's crack the door open for those folks.

00:17:37.298 --> 00:17:42.718
Give them a fighting chance to understand this world and these in the genre and what's going on here.

00:17:42.718 --> 00:17:44.657
And also let's have a little fun.

00:17:44.657 --> 00:17:47.218
mean, when was the last time you had fun with Ritz?

00:17:47.218 --> 00:17:49.460
So fingers crossed, fellas.

00:17:49.460 --> 00:17:56.461
Last time I had fun with Red Sonja was when she started in a movie with basically Conan, but it wasn't Conan.

00:17:56.461 --> 00:18:01.986
was just Arnold Schwarzenegger with another name swinging a giant sword hanging out with Red Sonja.

00:18:01.986 --> 00:18:05.731
Yeah, I remember, you know, we're not doing that.

00:18:06.816 --> 00:18:08.021
No, we're not doing that.

00:18:08.021 --> 00:18:34.867
love that approach because again, like, you know, we'll talk about it later when I, when I get to, you know, talk to you a little bit about Superman loss, but that's one thing that's really been impressive to me with comics, you know, and I know it's, it's, it feels like there's a select few creators in the comic industry that are given the freedom to really take a character and, and like, if not like completely reinvent them against to subvert the stereotypes or the current, you know, Yeah, exactly.

00:18:34.867 --> 00:18:36.568
The expectations.

00:18:36.568 --> 00:18:41.740
you know, and I love that approach because we talk a lot about uh like Wonder Woman.

00:18:41.740 --> 00:18:43.089
Chris and I talk a lot about Wonder Woman.

00:18:43.089 --> 00:18:48.801
We haven't really, well, he's found Wonder Woman, uh like people who have created Wonder Woman and written her in a way that he enjoys.

00:18:48.801 --> 00:18:53.303
But for some people, it's not easy to find a specific way to enjoy Wonder Woman.

00:18:53.303 --> 00:18:59.644
And then you get writers like yourself who want to, again, subvert the expectations and creates a character that we want to read about.

00:18:59.644 --> 00:19:03.809
that's, know, Black Panther has been like that for years now.

00:19:03.809 --> 00:19:08.938
thanks to what you've done with that character and kind of given him this new path forward.

00:19:09.069 --> 00:19:18.438
Well, I think the important thing to remember anytime you're reading a story that I wrote and it's, you know, and for anyone listening or watching this thing, you should write this down.

00:19:18.438 --> 00:19:23.342
If you're reading a priest story, just understand I am lying to you.

00:19:23.682 --> 00:19:28.056
You know, so chapter one, chapter two, there's a lot of lying going on here.

00:19:28.056 --> 00:19:28.977
Don't fall for it.

00:19:28.977 --> 00:19:37.614
We're having this conversation now with a, not the publisher, but with a uh rights holder.

00:19:37.614 --> 00:19:41.395
um for a property that we're not ready to talk about yet.

00:19:41.395 --> 00:19:43.666
you know, potato man, let's say.

00:19:43.666 --> 00:19:45.838
Okay, so the rights holder potato man.

00:19:45.838 --> 00:19:54.583
The publisher and I, we're on the same page, but the rights holder, I'm scaring the hell out of the rights holder because we're doing, you know, X, Y, and Z, and we're getting these notes back from them.

00:19:54.583 --> 00:19:56.865
And they're like, you know, it's like from the studio, right?

00:19:56.865 --> 00:20:04.979
And they're going, you know, well, this is, you know, cliche or, know, what if you, you know, gave the guy a banana instead of an orange, whatever the story.

00:20:04.979 --> 00:20:07.049
So I get these notes back from these people.

00:20:07.162 --> 00:20:21.125
And I'm trying to communicate to them through the publisher that you got to tell these people that I approach story in a very oblique manner, where I will lead you to think that we are doing like Superman lost.

00:20:21.125 --> 00:20:29.077
People assumed that that was about Superman being lost, that, he just got back from Warworld and now here he's out in space again.

00:20:29.077 --> 00:20:35.210
And now it's going to be like Gillian's Island where he's just out there wandering through space and so forth.

00:20:35.210 --> 00:20:36.609
And that's not what the series is about.

00:20:36.609 --> 00:20:38.791
because he's home on page five.

00:20:38.791 --> 00:20:39.932
He's already back.

00:20:39.932 --> 00:20:40.593
Okay.

00:20:40.593 --> 00:20:51.799
And the series is about this person who has had this traumatic experience, you know, and despite the fact that he has these vast powers, he's still, he's not, he's not super God.

00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:52.769
He's Superman.

00:20:52.769 --> 00:20:59.965
He's still a person who has had this, you know, this, experience and, now nothing in his life fits anymore.

00:20:59.965 --> 00:21:03.587
You know, and Clark Kent goes back to work and he doesn't remember what he used to do there.

00:21:03.587 --> 00:21:06.359
And, and, and Jimmy and Perry, they're all ghosts.

00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:09.231
to him because he's been missing for so long.

00:21:09.231 --> 00:21:13.173
And the story is about how Lois gets her guy back.

00:21:13.173 --> 00:21:14.835
That's what the story is about.

00:21:14.835 --> 00:21:22.439
But on the face of it, the expectation is that it's going to be just sort of business as usual.

00:21:22.518 --> 00:21:27.082
Aaron, I don't know about you, I get tired of reading the same story over and over again.

00:21:27.082 --> 00:21:27.711
Absolutely.

00:21:27.711 --> 00:21:35.213
So I'm a big fan of uh Tom King, uh who will turn stuff on its head.

00:21:35.213 --> 00:21:36.933
and we'll take a character like Mr.

00:21:36.933 --> 00:21:45.513
Miracle that we haven't thought about really seriously in how long and just completely blow your mind and Adam Strange and completely blow your mind.

00:21:45.513 --> 00:21:51.673
And I kind of resent the fact that I have to go behind this guy and I go, okay, well, Tom's already been here.

00:21:51.673 --> 00:21:53.854
He's already dated this girl.

00:21:53.953 --> 00:21:57.653
And I'm like, well, what can I bring to the table because Tom's already been here.

00:21:57.653 --> 00:22:00.574
So it's very irritating, very irritating.

00:22:01.184 --> 00:22:11.770
David proposed is a, as another writer who does another, you know, creator who does that very well because he's been doing that, you know, with a lot of characters, but I cannot wait to talk to more about Ben Law.

00:22:11.770 --> 00:22:52.857
I was saying we need to table the Superman lost talk because I I definitely want to get more into it We do have Superman the movie coming up next month And I think this would be like a really interesting topical conversation sure dealing with your book You know Superman lost but I want to briefly just let I'm gonna backtrack a little bit to Marvel nights I want to just sort of stick on this for a quick moment here because this first issue again as we said You know it came out this last just today actually this last week and I want to go over the synopsis and I have a question for you here, so The synopsis, the King of Wakanda is dead, leaving unguarded the world's most advanced technology, most precious metal and a cryptic vault of secret dark, excuse me, dark secrets while triggering global conflicts among the Marvel heroes, villains and mutants with the child gone.

00:22:52.857 --> 00:23:03.346
The future of Marvel 616 universe will be determined by a tribal challenge for Wakanda's throne and the mysterious Victor will change Wakanda, the Marvel universe forever.

00:23:03.346 --> 00:23:10.346
Now, priest, you've written 60 issues of Black Panthers that include the The annual from why you laughing you're laughing right now.

00:23:10.346 --> 00:23:11.461
Why are you laughing?

00:23:11.938 --> 00:23:14.118
No, because it's like, feel like it's an indictment.

00:23:14.118 --> 00:23:16.671
oh Mr.

00:23:16.671 --> 00:23:24.404
Priest, is it true that you've written 60 issues of The Rector Roast at the Harrell's Club?

00:23:24.625 --> 00:23:27.507
you're the pride of your department.

00:23:27.787 --> 00:23:36.852
Yes, I wrote 60 issues of Black Panther plus, you know, think a 10 page or something for this.

00:23:37.313 --> 00:23:39.054
Yeah, I've been around the block.

00:23:39.054 --> 00:23:40.965
uh That's right.

00:23:41.143 --> 00:23:44.946
So, you know, I've heard you mentioned that this story has been written for a while.

00:23:45.028 --> 00:23:48.731
The world to come has been sort of in the works for a bit.

00:23:48.792 --> 00:23:54.961
How soon after finishing your Black Panther on in 2003, did you have this sort of new installment in the Marvel Knights universe?

00:23:54.961 --> 00:23:56.551
When did it pop into your head?

00:23:57.294 --> 00:23:57.733
no.

00:23:57.733 --> 00:23:59.335
OK, no, it never popped.

00:23:59.335 --> 00:24:00.836
This is a Joe Cassata pop.

00:24:00.836 --> 00:24:05.193
ah There was a movie.

00:24:05.193 --> 00:24:06.019
You may have heard of it.

00:24:06.019 --> 00:24:07.058
was a movie.

00:24:07.058 --> 00:24:10.221
Ryan Foodler put out this movie, Black Panther.

00:24:11.122 --> 00:24:15.624
I was consulted for the film and I became aware of the film.

00:24:15.624 --> 00:24:24.128
uh And I said, well, I called up Marvel and I talked to the editor there, the Black Panther, Will Moss.

00:24:24.128 --> 00:24:27.240
ah And I said, look, there's this movie coming out.

00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:32.894
You know, I would really like to have a little Black Panther something, just a little just a little taste of Black Panther.

00:24:32.894 --> 00:24:35.936
You know, give me a little 10 pager or something.

00:24:35.936 --> 00:24:40.641
You know, I'd like to have something in print with my name on it when the movie comes out.

00:24:40.641 --> 00:24:45.494
You know, and Will was gracious enough to offer me a slot on a Black Panther annual.

00:24:45.494 --> 00:24:47.036
We worked that story out and that was great.

00:24:47.036 --> 00:24:50.249
But, know, at some point, you know, focus, I heard about this.

00:24:50.249 --> 00:24:53.431
You know, we may have been talking about whatever Joe and I are actually friends.

00:24:53.431 --> 00:24:55.012
We've been friends for a long time.

00:24:55.012 --> 00:24:56.587
That's when Joe made it.

00:24:56.587 --> 00:25:05.645
made me aware of uh plans that were in the works to celebrate uh Marvel Knight's 20th anniversary or whatever it was at the time.

00:25:05.645 --> 00:25:12.791
um So there was a big roadmap to uh this event that they were doing.

00:25:12.791 --> 00:25:18.518
um So that's how that, that the germ of that idea had it.

00:25:18.518 --> 00:25:25.182
And then we started talking about the Panther plot as it began to develop.

00:25:25.506 --> 00:25:33.605
And then a lot of that was just, was just, you know, was really just Joe just going, you know, and I was like, Joe, I just wanted to do a little thing, just a little thing.

00:25:33.973 --> 00:25:43.561
And he's turned it to this incredible waste of time, hundreds of pages, and you know, and there's going to be all these explosions and it's all, you know, it's world of evil.

00:25:43.561 --> 00:25:52.567
And, know, so it's really, you know, thanks to him and having this much larger than life vision and then dragging me by the.

00:25:52.567 --> 00:26:03.029
You Well, when you were talking about the anniversary and sort of bringing back the Marvel Knights imprint in some form or another, are we talking about the the Donny Cates?

00:26:03.029 --> 00:26:09.089
Was it like a mini series that was out a couple of years ago where you had all the different heroes pop in together again?

00:26:09.089 --> 00:26:10.589
I don't know if you remember that from a couple of years ago.

00:26:10.589 --> 00:26:13.569
I want to say it was like 2017 maybe.

00:26:13.582 --> 00:26:14.902
I have no knowledge.

00:26:14.902 --> 00:26:15.461
I'm sorry.

00:26:15.461 --> 00:26:16.584
I must've missed that.

00:26:16.584 --> 00:26:21.087
It was a mini and I think it was like relatively successful, but I was just curious because it would have been perfect.

00:26:21.087 --> 00:26:23.906
I really wish that something like this and again, this is great.

00:26:23.906 --> 00:26:27.673
I'm not This was like 2017, 2018, something like that.

00:26:28.594 --> 00:26:39.094
over the years since they canceled Black Panther when I was on it, Black Panther was always struggling for sales when I was on it.

00:26:39.094 --> 00:26:42.653
And then at some point Marvel said, we have a great idea.

00:26:42.653 --> 00:26:47.854
Let's get rid of T'Challa and let's recast this Black Panther as Vin Diesel.

00:26:48.213 --> 00:26:51.438
So we had this other guy, Casper Cole.

00:26:51.438 --> 00:27:03.563
uh And it was kind an interesting little experiment, you know, ah and I liked that character and I wouldn't mind seeing that character again, but uh that was Marvel saying like this is what we want to do.

00:27:03.563 --> 00:27:06.673
ah And if you don't want to do it, we'll get somebody else to do it.

00:27:06.673 --> 00:27:08.464
You you understand we'll get someone else to do it.

00:27:08.464 --> 00:27:10.435
And, you know, I was like, well, there goes the rent money.

00:27:10.435 --> 00:27:11.836
So yeah, I'll do it.

00:27:11.836 --> 00:27:13.646
So that's how I ended up doing Casper Cole.

00:27:13.646 --> 00:27:19.538
um And then, you know, uh at the conclusion of that, they were like, well, the numbers still aren't going up.

00:27:19.538 --> 00:27:20.940
This was just us still chasing.

00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:27.172
numbers instead of accepting the fact that this is what our audience was at the time.

00:27:27.172 --> 00:27:33.042
So it really wasn't until Reginald Hudlin took over and they relaunched the book with John Romita Jr.

00:27:33.042 --> 00:27:34.294
and Reginald Hudlin.

00:27:34.294 --> 00:27:37.914
And then Reggie not only wrote it brilliantly, but he went out and sold it.

00:27:37.914 --> 00:27:49.420
I mean, in ways that I could not, because I didn't have access to those types of venues, we could go on the Steve Harvey show, we could go on these other venues and just talked it up everywhere.

00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:53.905
Reginald was the was he the CEO of BET at the time or what was his involvement with BET?

00:27:53.905 --> 00:27:56.326
don't remember exactly when he took over.

00:27:56.326 --> 00:27:58.445
He became the president of BNT.

00:27:58.665 --> 00:28:01.546
I think the timeframes intersected.

00:28:01.546 --> 00:28:03.066
I'm not exactly sure.

00:28:03.506 --> 00:28:04.665
have to look those dates up.

00:28:04.665 --> 00:28:08.266
the point is that it became a commercial success.

00:28:08.605 --> 00:28:18.665
It was already a critical success when we were doing it, but it became a commercial success once Reggie came in and sort of cleared out the cobwebs and streamlined them and stuff.

00:28:18.665 --> 00:28:22.746
And then he went forward and promoted it.

00:28:23.233 --> 00:28:25.255
you know, kind of how all that took over.

00:28:25.255 --> 00:28:34.204
So over the years, I've been approached several times by Marvel to kind of come back to the character or do something else with the character or whatever like that.

00:28:34.204 --> 00:28:40.641
And I really felt very strongly that uh I had had my shot with Black Panther.

00:28:40.641 --> 00:28:42.333
I enjoyed my time with Black Panther.

00:28:42.333 --> 00:28:48.268
uh But at some point, I had catapulted Black Panther into outer space.

00:28:48.453 --> 00:28:56.316
And ah I remember seeing that book in print and I saw like Black Panther in space.

00:28:56.316 --> 00:28:59.554
And I said to myself, okay, you officially jumped the shark.

00:28:59.554 --> 00:29:04.939
You officially run out of ideas and it's time for Black Panther to belong to regeneration.

00:29:04.939 --> 00:29:11.461
ah know, Joe getting me to suit up for this was no small task.

00:29:11.461 --> 00:29:16.365
And I was like, well, I'm happy to sort of look over your shoulder and advise you, let you write it.

00:29:16.365 --> 00:29:18.726
And he was like, no, no, I really want your participation.

00:29:18.726 --> 00:29:19.546
I really want you in here.

00:29:19.546 --> 00:29:19.945
Blah, blah.

00:29:19.945 --> 00:29:23.965
And it was a lot of back and forth and a lot of fuss and back and forth.

00:29:25.226 --> 00:29:52.590
You know, but at some point we stumbled onto a story that I thought I could tell or that I could help him tell that we could tell together, however you want to phrase it, that was unique, that was adding to the legend that wasn't just me making or me or Joe making a money grab that this is actually a quality piece of work that's worth reading and so forth.

00:29:52.590 --> 00:29:55.853
that's how I kind of ended up saying, finally saying, yeah, okay, I'll do it.

00:29:55.853 --> 00:30:12.144
But yeah, was, know, I've seen writers, I will not name any of them, none of named Tom King, but I've seen writers who have made their mark with a character left, come back to that character and stumbled.

00:30:12.444 --> 00:30:14.349
And it's painful to watch.

00:30:14.349 --> 00:30:24.490
And I was like, I didn't want to come back to Black Panther, like do Black Panther Monthly, for example, and then have people go, it's not as it was back then.

00:30:25.210 --> 00:30:26.650
I'm just, ah.

00:30:26.650 --> 00:30:26.950
Yeah.

00:30:26.950 --> 00:30:28.632
So that's basically the backstory.

00:30:28.632 --> 00:30:29.405
Sure.

00:30:29.420 --> 00:30:33.556
Well, I'd like to ask a little bit about Katima or Katama.

00:30:33.797 --> 00:30:35.400
Katama.

00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:36.521
Katama.

00:30:36.521 --> 00:30:38.865
Without giving away any, like, know, ton of spoilers.

00:30:38.865 --> 00:30:44.440
uh Ta-Nehisi Ross, Ta-Nehisi Coates.

00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:46.289
cut yeah Yes.

00:30:47.631 --> 00:30:50.942
So without giving away, you're good.

00:30:50.942 --> 00:30:51.371
You're good.

00:30:51.371 --> 00:30:52.574
We want the details.

00:30:52.574 --> 00:30:53.733
We want all the details.

00:30:53.733 --> 00:30:56.685
Um, I just want to try and avoid spoilers as best we can.

00:30:56.685 --> 00:30:59.417
Cause we want, know, obviously, yeah.

00:30:59.417 --> 00:31:06.000
Uh, we entered this story seeing that there's a definite rift between the old King T'Challa and his son.

00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:12.023
You know, there's mention of both storm and Monica Lynn in this issue, whom we know, you know, T'Challa has children with.

00:31:12.023 --> 00:31:15.455
Does this potentially set us up for a fight for the crown?

00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:17.194
Wow, I'm going to embarrass myself now.

00:31:17.194 --> 00:31:20.746
Are you saying that Tashaala had a child with Storm?

00:31:20.950 --> 00:31:24.403
He said, well, so con, canonically, he's had a couple of children with storm.

00:31:24.403 --> 00:31:28.607
There's a Shuri Shuri, but it's like, it's not spelled the same way as Shuri.

00:31:28.607 --> 00:31:36.085
It's S H apostrophe R I you have a Chimera you have Azura Azari, who I think we kind of see.

00:31:36.085 --> 00:31:40.150
We actually see in the MCU who's actually named T'Challa as well.

00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:41.510
But they didn't call him that.

00:31:41.510 --> 00:31:43.272
And there's T'Wari as well.

00:31:43.272 --> 00:31:45.023
That's the ones that I know of.

00:31:45.945 --> 00:31:48.186
So he's got like a whole little like...

00:31:49.647 --> 00:31:51.048
Yeah, okay.

00:31:51.449 --> 00:31:56.230
Not in Marvel Knights, not in our universe.

00:31:56.230 --> 00:32:05.234
No, has the child that he is apparently having to dispute in when we meet him in this issue.

00:32:05.234 --> 00:32:13.493
uh yeah, we have wandered off from that continuity because I'm dumb and wasn't aware of it.

00:32:13.493 --> 00:32:23.758
No, no continuity is a, I've always said that like people who stick too strictly to continuity, they're handicapping themselves on a good story.

00:32:23.758 --> 00:32:25.857
know, Canon should be like a tool.

00:32:25.857 --> 00:32:26.778
It shouldn't be a law.

00:32:26.778 --> 00:32:27.479
Right.

00:32:27.479 --> 00:32:28.960
So I love the fact that you did that.

00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:34.176
I was just curious because I know that, you know, I wasn't Reggie that actually introduced a lot of the children.

00:32:34.176 --> 00:32:35.314
I don't, I actually don't know.

00:32:35.314 --> 00:32:35.529
know.

00:32:35.529 --> 00:32:38.332
It had to be him.

00:32:38.332 --> 00:32:44.694
Well, no, because I just philosophically, as I see the character, I would not have done that.

00:32:44.694 --> 00:32:45.634
Sure.

00:32:46.016 --> 00:32:57.682
I have a real problem with, you know, these heroic characters or comic book characters, you know, um having not necessarily having children, but it's just.

00:32:57.682 --> 00:33:05.432
uh You know, I think once you start moving too far away from the lore of what what what makes this character.

00:33:05.432 --> 00:33:06.182
great or whatever.

00:33:06.182 --> 00:33:22.171
um It's kind of like when you start pandering to the audience where you're, uh instead of bringing in new readers, you're following the old readers out of middle school into high school and out of high school into college and out of college into adult life.

00:33:22.311 --> 00:33:25.232
And we're writing stories that reflect that.

00:33:25.232 --> 00:33:30.685
uh And I guess there's really nothing wrong with that except now nobody's recruiting the eight year olds anymore.

00:33:30.685 --> 00:33:31.856
Where are their stories?

00:33:31.856 --> 00:33:33.102
What's going to draw them into it?

00:33:33.102 --> 00:33:39.468
Because an eight year old, doesn't want to read about, you know, a married potato man who has children, you know?

00:33:39.468 --> 00:33:42.367
So uh I would probably wouldn't have gone that way.

00:33:42.367 --> 00:33:55.991
uh it's not to criticize Reggie, but Reggie came over and, uh you know, his version, his volume of Black Panther was a complete jumpstart.

00:33:56.132 --> 00:33:58.803
So my character showed up in there, but they were very different.

00:33:58.803 --> 00:34:01.354
had different timelines, sort of like that.

00:34:01.354 --> 00:34:06.698
So uh this thing, the world to come connects to our Black Panther.

00:34:06.698 --> 00:34:12.018
It really connects to Black Panther number 12, which is where we left off with Marvel Knight.

00:34:12.018 --> 00:34:25.737
So 13 through 60, whatever the MCU, Black Panther that, know, some of that is referenced in here, but that's Sal Valudo, you know, Bob Alman, myself, that's a whole different crew.

00:34:25.878 --> 00:34:29.077
That's that's Tom Breivart, Black Panther.

00:34:29.197 --> 00:34:31.938
Joe Cassata, Black Panther is what we're talking about.

00:34:32.257 --> 00:34:35.273
you know, we're connecting to that earlier series.

00:34:35.273 --> 00:34:48.461
I don't want my superheroes running around just zoosing it up, you know, I want to be careful what I say because I run my mouth too much and I get in trouble and then I get the phone call.

00:34:48.463 --> 00:34:53.978
It's some vice president and they're pissed at me because we're trying to sell comic books here.

00:34:53.978 --> 00:34:55.079
We don't appreciate you.

00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.733
So I just want to be careful.

00:34:57.733 --> 00:34:59.920
uh around the block, you've seen a lot of things.

00:34:59.920 --> 00:35:04.277
So it's hard not to like have a like a pretty decently strong opinion about some of this stuff.

00:35:04.277 --> 00:35:07.639
What being around the block is that, you you've been around the block.

00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:17.965
So the people who are trying to make this work now, the generation that has that responsibility, you know, they're trying to keep the lights on at these places, you know.

00:35:18.385 --> 00:35:23.449
And then you have uh our retailers, our frontline of defense.

00:35:23.449 --> 00:35:26.181
are people, these are not big corporate entities.

00:35:26.181 --> 00:35:27.081
These are mom and pop.

00:35:27.081 --> 00:35:28.572
These are small business owners.

00:35:28.572 --> 00:35:31.981
They have high rents, low margins.

00:35:31.981 --> 00:35:43.161
You know, and a lot of pressure to like, oh, well, you you need to you need to order 100, you know, duck man to get the foil variant, you know, one copy of the foil there.

00:35:43.161 --> 00:35:56.822
It is a lot of this this this math where every month our retailers are sitting there with the catalogs and it's like a racing form and they're trying to decide what to bet what to bet the mortgage on this month.

00:35:56.822 --> 00:35:59.222
You know, and I have a lot of empathy for that.

00:35:59.222 --> 00:36:01.418
These are these are the real superheroes.

00:36:01.418 --> 00:36:02.318
But I want to be careful.

00:36:02.318 --> 00:36:05.501
I want to get up here and go, yeah, don't buy a duck boy this month.

00:36:05.501 --> 00:36:06.242
It really sucks.

00:36:06.242 --> 00:36:08.405
You I really don't appreciate that.

00:36:08.405 --> 00:36:10.577
You know, he got married.

00:36:10.577 --> 00:36:12.789
I don't want to read a married duck boy.

00:36:13.153 --> 00:36:17.556
We're huge proponents and big, big believers in the brick and mortar comic shop.

00:36:17.556 --> 00:36:20.438
Like we believe that those, those need to exist.

00:36:20.438 --> 00:36:22.300
You know, it's fun to have community online.

00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:33.197
think that that's got its own certain level of importance, but there's honestly nothing like going to your local comic book shop on Wednesday and you know, picking up the latest issue of the world to come that I have right here.

00:36:33.197 --> 00:36:39.891
I went to my local comic book shop and people were excited about it, which is why I wanted to ask you that question earlier about sort of what your thoughts were on the reception.

00:36:39.891 --> 00:36:46.880
And from my view, what I could see from my local comic book shop, was when I popped in, the very first issue that I saw was the world to come.

00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:56.936
And they don't do that for just, you know, uh issue seven of Spider Gwen or whatever, not to, not to just, you know, dissuade anybody from reading Spider Gwen, but like people were excited about this.

00:36:56.936 --> 00:36:58.346
Yeah, Spider Gwen is great.

00:36:59.186 --> 00:37:11.173
So, you know, and something you sort of mentioned earlier, and I want to sort of build off this a little bit, you know, something I really loved about your Black Panther Ron is that you kind of confirm this thought that I've had about the character since becoming a fan.

00:37:11.173 --> 00:37:13.746
And it's that He's not a superhero, right?

00:37:13.746 --> 00:37:17.965
He is, but he plays the role of superhero for diplomatic reasons.

00:37:17.965 --> 00:37:23.885
But at the end of the day, he's a Monarch of, know, the wealthiest or one of the most, one of the wealthiest countries in the world.

00:37:23.885 --> 00:37:29.465
And those relationships that he has with the Avengers and some of the American heroes are important to maintain.

00:37:29.465 --> 00:37:37.126
And I think also John Hickman does a pretty good job with this in his Avengers run showing T'Challa as a Monarch first, right?

00:37:37.126 --> 00:37:40.449
But my question for you is, This book is not advertised.

00:37:40.449 --> 00:37:43.054
The World to Come is not advertised as a Black Panther book.

00:37:43.054 --> 00:37:45.456
It is advertised as a Marvel Knights book.

00:37:46.099 --> 00:37:52.000
Does that mean that we're gonna get some more MK focused characters showing up in this series, the six issue series?

00:37:52.382 --> 00:37:53.402
No comment.

00:37:53.402 --> 00:37:55.572
got in trouble.

00:37:55.572 --> 00:37:57.072
I got in trouble.

00:37:57.072 --> 00:38:05.835
In the article, we were talking, I had an interview, we started wandering off, as I tend to do, and we started wandering off into other things.

00:38:05.835 --> 00:38:09.927
And I mentioned this inhuman series that I did with Phil Noto that I really loved.

00:38:09.927 --> 00:38:18.009
Teenagers, and they come to New York and they run into Spider-Man, back in the 60s, know, 60s Spider-Man.

00:38:18.009 --> 00:38:19.884
And I said something about Lockjaw.

00:38:19.884 --> 00:38:26.123
And I was like, you know, we'll just wait till he pops up here in the world to come, you know, and now, you know, ring, you know.

00:38:26.123 --> 00:38:27.048
What are you doing?

00:38:27.048 --> 00:38:27.882
You're killing us.

00:38:27.882 --> 00:38:31.447
uh Major spoiler lockjaw.

00:38:31.447 --> 00:38:38.161
I didn't say what lockjaw was doing, know, but may just you know, may just be just boiler so He's a teleporting dog.

00:38:38.161 --> 00:38:40.498
He's going to pop in every once in while, you know?

00:38:40.498 --> 00:38:41.659
Well, there you go.

00:38:41.659 --> 00:38:48.664
know, but let's just say, you know, there's a reason they did not uh title the book Black Panther.

00:38:48.664 --> 00:39:05.914
uh Joe, uh there's a part of this that Joe and I are, you know, uh co-writing uh that uh focuses on Black Panther, that Black Panther is the vehicle for a lot of the storytelling that's going on.

00:39:05.914 --> 00:39:10.123
uh But there will be lots of uh surprises.

00:39:10.123 --> 00:39:13.724
store that I really shouldn't even talk about.

00:39:13.952 --> 00:39:15.708
I mean, the first issue just came out.

00:39:15.708 --> 00:39:19.692
So it's hard to talk about future endeavors, but I just found it interesting.

00:39:19.692 --> 00:39:20.693
ain't seen nothing yet.

00:39:20.693 --> 00:39:25.105
Joe has completely lost his mind.

00:39:25.105 --> 00:39:27.719
He's like, Oh, and now the spaceship.

00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:31.032
Oh no, spaceship, ruined it.

00:39:32.655 --> 00:39:33.315
Trust me.

00:39:33.315 --> 00:39:35.237
Cool stuff happening in this book.

00:39:35.829 --> 00:39:42.163
I know I'm personally excited because Chris as well, because he obviously he's, you know, he is a huge fan of the original.

00:39:42.163 --> 00:39:49.206
But like one thing that I wanted to bring up and because this is a huge topic for me segue, huge segue.

00:39:49.206 --> 00:39:49.896
Yes.

00:39:49.896 --> 00:39:55.099
I have a little bit of trouble approaching this because this was such a big thing.

00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:57.880
Chris, you can ask him Superman lost.

00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:02.583
I have to ask about that because Superman lost is actually the first Superman book.

00:40:02.583 --> 00:40:08.108
that I've actually ever really enjoyed reading and read the entire, like the full story all the way through.

00:40:08.108 --> 00:40:14.322
Like I was addicted to this book and If I can just interject really quickly.

00:40:14.322 --> 00:40:21.315
uh know, Priest, when he was talking earlier about Wonder Woman, how there are certain people who just can't attach to certain characters because of the storylines.

00:40:21.315 --> 00:40:28.148
mean, I know I love the George Perez stuff and the Jeff John stuff, but I get why people don't, you know, they haven't found their Wonder Woman story.

00:40:28.148 --> 00:40:29.889
This was Aaron with Superman.

00:40:29.889 --> 00:40:35.512
Obviously, we know there's a lot of Superman stories out there that are great, but he couldn't find a way to latch onto the character.

00:40:35.512 --> 00:40:41.228
And when he came to me and said that he really loved Superman Lost, it was almost imperative that we had to talk to you about it.

00:40:41.228 --> 00:40:42.231
while you were on here today.

00:40:42.231 --> 00:40:42.702
I'm sorry.

00:40:42.702 --> 00:40:43.130
I don't mean to.

00:40:43.130 --> 00:40:48.746
uh been asking for this conversation for a long time because of, because of Superman loss, but I appreciate you.

00:40:48.746 --> 00:40:50.858
helped me kind of articulate that Chris.

00:40:50.858 --> 00:40:59.594
And the reason I kind of wanted to write out was like, I'm a huge advocate of mental health, you know, and you know, since reading it, Superman lost, I've been become a huge fan of that.

00:40:59.594 --> 00:41:16.175
And up until now, again, like I hadn't really read anything that really resonated with me and the way that you portrayed like, you know, the man of steel soups himself in some of his darkest moments curled up in the fetal position with Lois telling him, You know, just breathe, Clark, just breathe.

00:41:16.175 --> 00:41:29.005
You know, as somebody who suffers from chronic PTSD from some dark stuff while I served overseas, it really spoke to me and it really helped me find a Superman that I had never thought existed.

00:41:29.005 --> 00:41:31.626
Like this was my Superman.

00:41:31.626 --> 00:41:36.889
And so for me, I've been wanting to ask, like, how did you figure out how to write him in that state?

00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:47.215
Like so accurately struggling, like in a world full of people, but being a Superman, like isolated, you know, and in his own head and his own emotions, like, how did you do that?

00:41:47.215 --> 00:41:52.061
Because again, as somebody who suffers from PTSD, like I felt every moment of that.

00:41:52.061 --> 00:41:53.983
And I just found it so amazing.

00:41:53.983 --> 00:41:55.675
So I needed to ask you about that.

00:41:56.914 --> 00:41:59.514
I don't know what to say, but thank you for that.

00:41:59.976 --> 00:42:02.235
Well, first of all, I called Mike Carlin.

00:42:02.336 --> 00:42:23.365
Mike Carlin was the editor of Superman, maybe one of the legendary all-time great editors of uh Well, this book came about by accident, but just real briefly, I was working on another project with a group editor named Jamie Rich, who's no longer with us.

00:42:23.822 --> 00:42:37.284
ah And I was we were talking about a Justice League project and I got I was getting off the phone with Jamie and And we were hanging up and I before you go by the way I got this idea you may want to give to your Superman because he was editing Superman I want to give this idea to you.

00:42:37.284 --> 00:42:50.704
So here's a freebie for your Superman I have this, know my one Superman idea and I just you know laid out this this this idea to him You know, and he said well that sounds like something you ought to write, you know, why don't you write it?

00:42:50.704 --> 00:42:52.882
And I said well it never occurred to me to write it.

00:42:52.882 --> 00:42:53.563
I said, why?

00:42:53.563 --> 00:42:57.824
Because DC's never allowed me to write Superman before.

00:42:58.164 --> 00:43:01.244
I write in a very subversive way.

00:43:01.264 --> 00:43:05.246
Superman is like their marquee mainstream character.

00:43:05.246 --> 00:43:20.780
There's a lot of stuff that uh I wouldn't say I'm ineligible to write, but that I am not a natural fit to write because ah I would assume in some editors' heads, they're like, well, he's going to Tom King this up.

00:43:20.780 --> 00:43:23.751
you know, or whatever the story is.

00:43:23.751 --> 00:43:30.394
ah At any rate, um Jamie got the thing greenlit before he he moved on, you know.

00:43:30.394 --> 00:43:31.686
So thank God for Jamie.

00:43:31.686 --> 00:43:33.617
I never would have got a chance to write.

00:43:33.617 --> 00:43:36.608
you know, no, no, no.

00:43:36.608 --> 00:43:39.139
It was terrifying when I have to write this thing.

00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:41.070
So, you know, I called up my carlin.

00:43:41.070 --> 00:43:46.233
You know, I've known my carlin 35 years, 40 years, however long it's been, you know.

00:43:46.233 --> 00:43:48.184
So I call my carlin, my carlin.

00:43:48.184 --> 00:43:55.061
There's there's probably no breathing person around who is a better uh expert on the character.

00:43:55.061 --> 00:43:56.601
So he talked me through a lot of it.

00:43:56.601 --> 00:44:11.152
um But I would tell you just in my perspective, there is this theory that there is no Bruce Wayne, that it's just Batman and Bruce Wayne is like his day job or the face he puts on.

00:44:11.152 --> 00:44:13.503
know, I think for Superman, it's the exact opposite.

00:44:13.503 --> 00:44:15.574
I think there is no Superman.

00:44:15.795 --> 00:44:17.195
There is Clark.

00:44:17.356 --> 00:44:24.554
He is Clark when he's run around in a costume, he's Clark in a cape, but he's the same guy, you know?

00:44:24.554 --> 00:44:27.054
And what makes him Superman is not his powers.

00:44:27.054 --> 00:44:35.114
That was the whole subtext of the series that because he moves around from different areas of space, his power has changed based on those circumstances.

00:44:35.114 --> 00:44:36.554
What color is the sun?

00:44:36.554 --> 00:44:38.014
What's the level of gravity?

00:44:38.014 --> 00:44:40.434
What are these scientific variables?

00:44:40.554 --> 00:44:47.534
But the one thing that remains consistent is his strength of character is, you know?

00:44:47.672 --> 00:44:51.483
So I asked Carla and I said, well, look, let me ask you something.

00:44:51.483 --> 00:44:54.824
How far can I bend this guy without breaking him?

00:44:54.905 --> 00:44:59.887
Because I'm going to take him down pretty far and challenge his dignity.

00:44:59.887 --> 00:45:14.753
And a lot of fans are not going to like their hero curled up in a ball on the floor, you know, um or the fact that Lobo's dolphins run off somewhere with uh his original red and blue costume.

00:45:14.813 --> 00:45:17.893
And it becomes traumatic to him because that's all he has left.

00:45:18.273 --> 00:45:33.773
You know, but Aaron, if you imagine yourself and I hope that this has never happened to you, but you imagine yourself, you know, out there in space somewhere, you know, and the guiding principle is, you know, and you know, the fans, you know, we can all fight about this.

00:45:33.773 --> 00:45:46.250
But so far as I'm concerned, and I asked Mike Carlin, who I think is the definite expert, you know, and I asked a couple of other people far as I'm concerned, Superman cannot fly faster than light on his own.

00:45:46.510 --> 00:45:48.969
He needs a green lantern or a spaceship or something.

00:45:48.969 --> 00:45:52.610
And now he can go at warp speed and just cross the galaxy, whatever.

00:45:52.610 --> 00:45:57.809
But all by himself, you know, he can fly very fast, a lot faster than our spaceships fly.

00:45:57.809 --> 00:46:05.530
And he can go zooming towards a planet or a moon or something and use the slingshot to accelerate and boom, go across the gap.

00:46:05.530 --> 00:46:07.829
You know, so he could do a lot of that sort of stuff.

00:46:07.829 --> 00:46:11.610
But the fact is, it takes him a long time to get from point A to point B.

00:46:11.610 --> 00:46:12.838
you know, without that.

00:46:13.186 --> 00:46:19.659
And then also if he's in an unfamiliar star system, you know, you don't navigate space by sight.

00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:21.226
You don't go, there's Pluto.

00:46:21.226 --> 00:46:22.809
You know, let me hit it that way.

00:46:22.809 --> 00:46:25.990
You know, you listen.

00:46:26.050 --> 00:46:27.938
There's space has noise.

00:46:27.938 --> 00:46:28.911
There's quasars.

00:46:28.911 --> 00:46:34.034
There's different, different vibrations, radioactive activities, solar storms.

00:46:34.034 --> 00:46:38.695
You know, it is all of these clues to let you know where you are in space.

00:46:38.695 --> 00:46:41.918
And if you're in unfamiliar space and you can't fly fast and speed of light.

00:46:41.918 --> 00:46:42.958
So now.

00:46:42.978 --> 00:46:52.222
you know, the situation where it's taking him, he's been flying through space for seven months and he still hasn't left the solar system that he was trapped in.

00:46:52.501 --> 00:46:54.563
And then the dolphin steal his suit.

00:46:54.563 --> 00:47:03.927
you know, and so we bring him down to his breaking point, you know, and I asked Mike, you know, is this, am I going to be able to get away with that?

00:47:03.927 --> 00:47:10.268
So uh the editor who was the main editor on the book was Brittany Holzer.

00:47:10.630 --> 00:47:13.422
And Thank God for Brittany, who worked with me on Deathstroke.

00:47:13.422 --> 00:47:15.181
We have a long history together.

00:47:16.282 --> 00:47:33.161
She was able to kind of fend off the wolves, because Superman is a very important character to Discovery Plus, people way above even Jim Lee, who could put a kibosh on us.

00:47:33.802 --> 00:47:40.961
So thank God she was able to kind of hold that door and let us tell this deeply personal story.

00:47:41.025 --> 00:47:45.070
Um, and, you know, but that's basically how I, Aaron, how I queued into it.

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:46.431
I just see him.

00:47:46.431 --> 00:47:47.612
He's just a man.

00:47:47.612 --> 00:47:52.577
He's just Clark, but he's an exceptional person of virtue and character.

00:47:52.577 --> 00:48:06.880
Um, and, uh, and, and the trauma that he experienced and the fact that he had escaped this dying world in order to save it and then couldn't find it again, couldn't find his way back there.

00:48:06.880 --> 00:48:11.231
So he's now he's got this enormous guilt that's crashing on top of everything else.

00:48:11.231 --> 00:48:13.043
You know, so yeah, it was like that.

00:48:13.043 --> 00:48:16.164
But basically, you know, he's a tough character to write.

00:48:16.164 --> 00:48:24.338
then with as with every character I'm sitting there going, what can I say about this character or what can I do with this character that hasn't been done before?

00:48:24.338 --> 00:48:25.628
Damn that time.

00:48:26.208 --> 00:48:27.382
Yeah.

00:48:27.764 --> 00:48:34.840
You know, and to speak of what you were saying about like, we don't often see our heroes in their time of struggle.

00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:37.072
He tried to do that with Heroes in Crisis.

00:48:37.072 --> 00:48:42.489
I think, while some people may not like that book.

00:48:42.489 --> 00:48:47.512
know, I guess I was doing that was doing Heroes in Crisis.

00:48:47.592 --> 00:48:52.710
No, that Heroes of Crisis received this mixed reception.

00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:58.427
So I was kind of terrified that people would come after me with torches for what I was doing with Superman.

00:48:58.541 --> 00:48:59.211
Sure.

00:48:59.211 --> 00:48:59.581
Yeah.

00:48:59.581 --> 00:49:01.652
I want the other thing that, know, you talked about it.

00:49:01.652 --> 00:49:04.893
This is not just a Superman Clark Kent story.

00:49:04.893 --> 00:49:15.889
Like the one thing again, I had to have to say, like, uh, I give you a round of applause and I, know, all the kudos in the world for, the entire story, because it's not just how well Superman is written.

00:49:15.909 --> 00:49:26.273
It's Lois Lane and even Lex Luthor and, and, and what she, what she goes through to bring him back to the world.

00:49:26.273 --> 00:49:41.726
It's like, just, Again, like you kind of captured a lot of like what I've, what I've, and I'm sure many other veterans and many other people who have, you know, like PTSD, who have people around them that love them and would go to the ends of the earth to, to, to bring them back to some sort of normalcy.

00:49:41.726 --> 00:49:49.311
So I just, I, again, like this is if anything from this conversation, I just want to say thank you for letting me ask you and for explaining that to me.

00:49:49.311 --> 00:49:54.306
Cause it really, honestly, truly means a lot to me what you created there.

00:49:54.594 --> 00:49:55.623
I appreciate that.

00:49:55.623 --> 00:49:59.474
And it was just like, you know, my one shot at playing with the toys.

00:49:59.514 --> 00:50:05.617
And, um you know, I don't know that that's a tone that DC wants to take with those characters.

00:50:05.617 --> 00:50:12.318
uh You know, and I don't know what my eligibility is to oh work on those characters.

00:50:12.318 --> 00:50:16.980
But uh with Lois, I always saw her as being a very strong character.

00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:18.740
So now we have to prove it.

00:50:19.141 --> 00:50:22.637
And then I had to walk her right up to the line of being unlikable.

00:50:22.637 --> 00:50:25.257
because she's giving Superman the tough love thing.

00:50:25.818 --> 00:50:32.958
And then when she runs out of ideas and she tries this, she tries that, and she goes to this person, she goes to Bruce, and then she goes to Diana.

00:50:32.958 --> 00:50:34.757
And she tries everything she can think of.

00:50:34.757 --> 00:50:39.557
When she runs out of ideas, she has no other choice but she turns to Lex Luthor of all people.

00:50:39.557 --> 00:50:42.418
And Lex Luthor is like, what took you so long?

00:50:43.277 --> 00:50:45.557
I knew you were coming, what took you so long?

00:50:45.818 --> 00:50:52.418
And with Lex, I was borrowing from Gene Hackman's performance, the late Gene Hackman.

00:50:52.418 --> 00:50:58.061
wonderful actor, but not from Gene's Lex Luthor, which I found kind of cartoonish.

00:50:58.061 --> 00:51:07.307
uh I was writing a character called Avery Tolar, and Avery Tolar was a character played by Gene Hackman in the Tom Cruise film.

00:51:07.487 --> 00:51:17.465
And if you go back and watch clips of that film and see clips of Hackman in it, you will recognize my Lex Luthor.

00:51:17.465 --> 00:51:26.414
That, in my opinion, that charming and yet unbelievably evil snake.

00:51:26.653 --> 00:51:32.914
To me, every time I see Lex, and again, no offense to writers who make way more money than I do.

00:51:34.514 --> 00:51:36.333
I mean, no one any harm.

00:51:36.333 --> 00:51:38.693
It's just my personal take on the character.

00:51:38.693 --> 00:51:48.153
Every time I see Lex Luthor put on a suit of armor and start punching Superman, I think, okay, you guys have completely lost who the character is.

00:51:48.313 --> 00:51:59.907
The entire point of Lex Luthor is that Here is this ball-headed, out-of-shape guy who's giving the world's most powerful being heartburn all the time.

00:51:59.907 --> 00:52:01.748
It's not about a physical thing.

00:52:01.748 --> 00:52:06.831
It's about him being incredibly frickin' evil.

00:52:06.831 --> 00:52:16.206
And we even played with the whole idea of like, Superman finds out that Lex has done some unscrupulous thing and he's pissed off he's gonna go after Lex.

00:52:16.206 --> 00:52:17.550
And Lois is going.

00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:19.210
No, no, no, I'll take care of Lex.

00:52:19.210 --> 00:52:20.869
No, no, he's not messing with my wife.

00:52:20.869 --> 00:52:23.610
I'm going to, you know, and Lois just goes, what are you going to do?

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:26.929
You're to go over there, you you break down the wall.

00:52:26.929 --> 00:52:28.289
He has the big robot.

00:52:28.289 --> 00:52:29.909
You fight the big robot.

00:52:29.909 --> 00:52:34.150
She basically says it's the same old shit we've been reading for 80 years.

00:52:34.150 --> 00:52:36.829
Clark, go in the kitchen and fix the toaster.

00:52:36.829 --> 00:52:38.210
We need the toaster fixed.

00:52:38.210 --> 00:52:40.650
I'll take care of Lex, you know.

00:52:40.650 --> 00:52:47.233
And I also thought that I had the privilege and the honor of doing what I hope is, and you guys can correct me if you know.

00:52:47.233 --> 00:52:47.614
better.

00:52:47.614 --> 00:52:55.875
uh I believe that was the first time we saw uh Superman and Lois have a knockdown drag out fight.

00:52:55.916 --> 00:52:57.887
You know, and there was some objection to that.

00:52:57.887 --> 00:53:03.396
There was some, you notes, you know, oh, well, you know, they don't fight.

00:53:03.396 --> 00:53:05.639
I'm like, have you ever been in a relationship?

00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:07.760
Get out of your mom's basement.

00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:11.041
Have you never been in a relationship?

00:53:11.041 --> 00:53:15.478
If you've ever been in relationship with a man, woman, giraffe, frog?

00:53:15.478 --> 00:53:20.199
If you've ever been in a relationship, you have been in a fight.

00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:21.480
You understand?

00:53:21.679 --> 00:53:24.010
And this is the thing that just kind of irritated me.

00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:29.561
And I'm like, just having them have this incredible, like, know, as soon as like, are not going to be these people.

00:53:29.561 --> 00:53:31.463
I am not going to know.

00:53:31.463 --> 00:53:36.543
And having them just go at it like that and just have her be the boss and order him into the kitchen.

00:53:36.583 --> 00:53:37.534
One last thing about this.

00:53:37.534 --> 00:53:38.315
I'm sorry.

00:53:38.315 --> 00:53:39.155
I'm glad I'm here.

00:53:39.155 --> 00:53:41.766
But there's one thing that I just want to call out as my artist.

00:53:41.766 --> 00:53:49.311
uh Carlo Pagulian and there was some other guest artists because Carlo's dad became ill and he was taking care of his dad.

00:53:49.371 --> 00:53:54.454
And God bless Carlo for just being a hero to turn in the work that he could turn in.

00:53:54.454 --> 00:54:04.920
But anyway, the very first issue, this is one scene where Bruce Wayne shows up at the apartment to tell Lois Lane that Superman has been lost, that he's lost in space somewhere.

00:54:04.945 --> 00:54:07.233
And they've been searching for him and they can't find him.

00:54:07.233 --> 00:54:09.625
So he's come to give her the bad news.

00:54:09.625 --> 00:54:11.436
So she opens the door.

00:54:12.121 --> 00:54:13.293
Bruce is standing there.

00:54:13.293 --> 00:54:17.286
looks past Lois and sees Superman standing in the living room.

00:54:17.286 --> 00:54:20.719
And I said to Carl, I said, look, you're going to have to sell this moment.

00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:22.010
You've got to sell it.

00:54:22.010 --> 00:54:25.773
We've got to see it in Bruce's eyes that he's shocked to see Superman there.

00:54:25.773 --> 00:54:28.695
Otherwise, I'm going to have to put one of those lame captions.

00:54:28.695 --> 00:54:33.440
And then I opened the door and I saw him standing in his, you know, and I don't want to do that to me.

00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:38.284
That's just, you know, that first person narrative stuff is just, you know, I didn't want to do that.

00:54:38.284 --> 00:54:40.576
You know, so said, Carl, you got to nail it.

00:54:40.576 --> 00:54:41.675
And my God, he nailed it.

00:54:41.675 --> 00:54:52.726
You go back and look at that picture where she opens the door and you see Bruce standing there and you see that look in his eyes that says it all where he's going, holy crap, he's here.

00:54:52.726 --> 00:54:57.329
And I went, this is how brilliant Carlo was, or is, I'm sorry.

00:54:58.431 --> 00:55:00.442
Excuse me, he's not gone.

00:55:00.442 --> 00:55:02.123
He's a wonderful artist.

00:55:02.123 --> 00:55:05.485
he just completely, okay, I'm done with the ranting, sorry.

00:55:05.485 --> 00:55:18.385
I have to agree because absolutely throughout the story, again, yeah, there are absolute like the scenes, you know, your, your words, your writing, the scenes and the art is again, it has to portray that emotion, which it did perfectly.

00:55:18.385 --> 00:55:33.324
And I, also just to comment on what you said about the knockout, knockdown, drag out fight between Lois and Clark, you know, that's, that's the thing about like a traumatic experience when you come back, especially again, and I don't mean to keep harping on like, using service members, got to talk about what I know.

00:55:33.324 --> 00:55:44.027
you know, when somebody comes back from a traumatic event, they are not the same person, you know, and the family has to get used to that and the dynamic changes and things will not be the status quo.

00:55:44.027 --> 00:55:53.447
So regardless of what battle, you know, Clark is fighting, what story Lois is covering, you know, there's gotta be somebody who's, who's making the decisions.

00:55:53.447 --> 00:55:55.208
It's gotta be somebody who's, who's pointing the gun.

00:55:55.208 --> 00:55:56.884
There's gotta be somebody who's writing the stories.

00:55:56.884 --> 00:56:03.646
And I think that you depicted that very well because it just, it's, know, somebody's got to do the job.

00:56:03.646 --> 00:56:06.039
And if it's not going to be Clark, it's got to be Lois.

00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:09.440
And if it's not going to be Lois, then she has to go out and find somebody to do it.

00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:17.757
So I think, again, just, I know we got to continue the conversation on and, but it's it's, it's all well done, like so very well done.

00:56:18.094 --> 00:56:20.135
Well, thank you, and I appreciate that.

00:56:20.135 --> 00:56:28.322
And I think, you know, what I was also trying to depict was how hard it is for people to accept the fact that you are a different person.

00:56:28.322 --> 00:56:34.588
You know, because later on we meet up with Supergirl and Supergirl, she's even harder than Lois.

00:56:34.588 --> 00:56:36.588
She was like, hey, man, just wake up, you know.

00:56:36.588 --> 00:56:44.873
uh And uh the other brilliant thing about Carlos, you see Lois and then you see Wonder Woman, I think in the same issue.

00:56:44.873 --> 00:56:46.456
And then later you see Supergirl.

00:56:46.456 --> 00:56:47.342
And guess what?

00:56:47.342 --> 00:56:51.224
They're three completely unique women.

00:56:51.344 --> 00:56:57.407
A lot of times artists, I used to tease the late Mark Bright, my friend Mark Bright said, you know, can only draw one woman.

00:56:57.728 --> 00:56:59.590
One woman and you put different hair.

00:56:59.590 --> 00:57:02.021
Betty and Veronica is the same woman, know, that kind of thing.

00:57:02.021 --> 00:57:05.554
Gwen Stacy and Barry Jane Parker, know, same world.

00:57:05.554 --> 00:57:16.844
You know, but no, just, you know, starkly, you know, so Lois and Wonder Woman, both brunettes, you know, tall legged brunettes, completely different women.

00:57:16.844 --> 00:57:21.420
you know, and then Supergirl, a whole different vibe with Supergirl.

00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:22.081
it was fun.

00:57:22.081 --> 00:57:24.264
I'm really grateful for DC to do it.

00:57:24.264 --> 00:57:26.748
It's one of, you know, I'm very proud of that.

00:57:26.748 --> 00:57:59.673
uh I hope it's not my last work with DC, but if it is, I get to go out on a high and just be very Well, uh I have to admit this to you, we're nearing the end of our conversation and I think it's important to admit this here at the end that we've had the great fortune of talking to a ton of amazing creators here on the podcast, but preparing for this conversation, and again, I sort of alluded to it earlier in the talk, that it was sort of refreshingly hard to find this pillar because again, your career is so lofty and just again, so decorated.

00:57:59.893 --> 00:58:01.644
We generally, and I'm not trying to butter you up.

00:58:01.644 --> 00:58:09.137
I know we've spent the last 20 minutes buttering you up about Superman lost and now this, but like, you know, we generally like to summarize these couple, a couple of key highlights in someone's career.

00:58:09.137 --> 00:58:13.088
And that's just impossible with you and your, again, almost 50 year career.

00:58:13.088 --> 00:58:16.559
So I want to somehow turn this ass kissing into a question.

00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:26.742
You know, if you could go back and talk to that bright-eyed Marvel intern that you once were, what piece, what's one piece of advice that you would give that young priest?

00:58:27.052 --> 00:58:29.043
Wow, is that a tough one.

00:58:30.463 --> 00:58:30.974
I don't know.

00:58:30.974 --> 00:58:33.425
I think I would try to be more patient.

00:58:33.425 --> 00:58:37.347
uh I don't know, fellas.

00:58:37.347 --> 00:58:40.387
It was uh very tough.

00:58:40.387 --> 00:58:42.528
was extremely tough.

00:58:42.869 --> 00:58:46.351
It wasn't just a black thing, but I was brought into the business by Jim Shooter.

00:58:46.351 --> 00:58:52.554
uh And Jim Shooter was like the new boss, the new sheriff in town.

00:58:52.746 --> 00:58:55.958
And there was a lot of resentment towards Shooter because Shooter wanted to change a lot of stuff.

00:58:55.958 --> 00:59:00.646
Shooter wanted to make books better and have them come out on time, which was too diametrically opposed.

00:59:00.646 --> 00:59:02.753
You could do one or the other, but Jim wanted both.

00:59:02.753 --> 00:59:04.655
And so that made him kind of a maniac.

00:59:04.655 --> 00:59:06.826
And there was a lot of friction in there.

00:59:06.826 --> 00:59:16.163
And I was seen as Jim's, you know, as Jim's guys, as the kid that, you know, that he brought in.

00:59:16.163 --> 00:59:21.396
so there was, you know, so we would do stuff like Spider-Man versus Wolverine, which was a huge hit.

00:59:21.614 --> 00:59:24.653
And I was never offered work after that.

00:59:24.653 --> 00:59:27.173
Anybody else that would have given them keys to the place.

00:59:28.054 --> 00:59:30.914
So it's been a struggle.

00:59:31.134 --> 00:59:34.393
And I try not to be bitter about it.

00:59:34.393 --> 00:59:37.233
I'm just like, that's just how the chips fell.

00:59:37.474 --> 00:59:40.534
I don't think it's necessarily racial.

00:59:40.873 --> 00:59:48.454
At least at Marvel, I think it was just more of a matter of like, I'm Jim's protege, and I'm a little shooter, and we're going to show you.

00:59:48.454 --> 00:59:51.050
We're going to punish you because we're mad at him.

00:59:51.050 --> 00:59:54.802
whatever the story was, but uh it's just been a journey.

00:59:54.802 --> 00:59:57.693
So I don't know exactly what I would tell him.

00:59:57.693 --> 01:00:04.478
I'm just grateful that I've been able to sort of exist below the radar and to have a career as long as I have.

01:00:04.478 --> 01:00:07.498
There's a lot of people from my generation who not working.

01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:10.601
So it's just a real blessing to do that.

01:00:10.601 --> 01:00:20.266
And for the work to be recognized, particularly Carlo and I being recognized uh by the Eisner people for uh Deathstroke and then again for Superman.

01:00:20.788 --> 01:00:22.431
We'll see what happens from here.

01:00:22.431 --> 01:00:26.601
Hopefully I still have a few laps around the park left in me, but we'll see.

01:00:26.710 --> 01:00:28.541
I'll tell you, I firmly believe that you do.

01:00:28.541 --> 01:00:36.347
Again, you sort of just mentioned it, but like the longevity of a comic creator is it's not always the longer you've been in, the more work you get.

01:00:36.347 --> 01:00:44.782
Sometimes you eventually just sort of fall off the radar and you've done a great job of continuing to work at a high level and your career is decorated as we've said.

01:00:44.981 --> 01:00:49.264
you know, I'll just sort of finish the conversation by saying what a pleasure it's been having you here on the show, Priest.

01:00:49.264 --> 01:00:56.565
you know, talking about Black Panther and Marvel Knights and Superman, all the things, you know, this has all been such a such an honor to have you here.

01:00:56.565 --> 01:01:05.856
And we mentioned it earlier, but the first issue of The World to Come is already out by the time at the time of this recording, the first issue is already out and the second issue comes out on July 9th.

01:01:05.856 --> 01:01:07.677
Aaron, did you have something before we close out?

01:01:07.862 --> 01:01:12.773
I actually had one more question because I recently found out that you were from Queens.

01:01:12.773 --> 01:01:13.501
yeah, he's a New York boy.

01:01:13.501 --> 01:01:14.309
I forgot to mention that earlier.

01:01:14.309 --> 01:01:14.793
Yes.

01:01:14.793 --> 01:01:19.081
And I wanted to know if you had any recommendations like food wise.

01:01:19.081 --> 01:01:19.826
Aaron's in Brooklyn.

01:01:19.826 --> 01:01:21.230
I guess you should say that.

01:01:21.628 --> 01:01:24.231
I haven't lived in New York in like 30 years.

01:01:24.231 --> 01:01:25.762
I'm sorry.

01:01:25.782 --> 01:01:26.572
In St.

01:01:26.572 --> 01:01:35.010
Albans, Queens on Farmers Boulevard and Murdoch Avenue, uh there is a uh hole in the wall fish joint.

01:01:35.070 --> 01:01:39.065
And it's a place that normally you wouldn't want to be caught dead in.

01:01:39.065 --> 01:01:42.858
But you go by there and you see like this line of people waiting to get in.

01:01:42.858 --> 01:01:47.117
And anytime you see a line of people waiting to get into some like dead in shack.

01:01:47.117 --> 01:01:50.038
Okay, there's something good going on.

01:01:50.057 --> 01:01:53.617
And my nephew Evan, said the place is still there.

01:01:53.617 --> 01:01:58.637
So I'll recommend I don't know the name of it, but it's a little hole in the wall, you know, fish store.

01:01:58.637 --> 01:02:03.367
And it's unbelievably good fish, you know, and we used to go there all the time.

01:02:03.367 --> 01:02:06.889
find it and when I do I will I will message you about it.

01:02:06.889 --> 01:02:12.989
You go to Farr Boulevard and at Murdoch Avenue and just look, just follow the spell or just follow the line.

01:02:12.989 --> 01:02:14.273
You use your line now.

01:02:14.273 --> 01:02:20.041
I was saying, I feel like if you're following the smell of fish in New York City, you're probably going to be going in a lot of different directions.

01:02:23.025 --> 01:02:28.434
Are you going to any conventions this year in 2025?

01:02:28.434 --> 01:02:28.925
Yeah.

01:02:28.925 --> 01:02:30.405
doing a bunch.

01:02:30.405 --> 01:02:31.965
I'm doing Denver.

01:02:33.706 --> 01:02:34.965
That's coming up.

01:02:34.965 --> 01:02:36.626
And then I'm doing New Orleans.

01:02:36.626 --> 01:02:38.585
And then there's like a bunch of other stuff.

01:02:38.585 --> 01:02:40.405
But I have to look at on my list.

01:02:40.405 --> 01:02:43.065
My agent just leaves me around by my nose.

01:02:44.146 --> 01:02:46.295
Every now and then he reminds me I have to go to the airport.

01:02:46.295 --> 01:02:48.349
Somebody just hands you a ticket and says, get on the.

01:02:48.349 --> 01:03:04.231
ah Joe, Joe, actually the whole uh world to come team, Richard and Joe and myself, we will be making a joint appearance and doing, you know, group signings there.

01:03:04.231 --> 01:03:08.264
And there's some other stuff coming up and I'm sorry, I probably should write this stuff down.

01:03:08.264 --> 01:03:08.594
I have it.

01:03:08.594 --> 01:03:10.806
People ask me.

01:03:10.818 --> 01:03:12.699
Well, we hope to see you at one of the future ones here.

01:03:12.699 --> 01:03:18.246
And before we let you go, is there anything you want to quickly plug or sort of highlight before we get you out of here?

01:03:18.842 --> 01:03:23.614
Well, get Vampirella because we just had a new volume launch.

01:03:23.614 --> 01:03:26.507
think issue two is out now, one and two there.

01:03:26.507 --> 01:03:29.688
then Sonya Reborn is coming up from Dynamite.

01:03:30.048 --> 01:03:34.030
And that's just going to be a love it or hate it moment.

01:03:34.030 --> 01:03:37.052
I'd love to get your reaction on that at some point.

01:03:37.052 --> 01:03:44.336
And then beyond that, there's a whole bunch of stuff coming out that I can't talk about because I talked about it in this other interview.

01:03:44.336 --> 01:03:46.730
It's a print interview that's online now.

01:03:46.730 --> 01:03:48.811
and I got into so much trouble.

01:03:48.811 --> 01:03:49.920
Why don't you tell them?

01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:51.181
Why don't you tell them?

01:03:51.181 --> 01:03:56.045
You know, so apparently they don't want me to even tell people that I have a relationship with this company.

01:03:56.045 --> 01:03:58.818
So we're just going to shut the hell up.

01:03:59.045 --> 01:04:04.246
Well, I'll tell you what, we're to get you on again in the future at some point and we'll figure out what Mr.

01:04:04.326 --> 01:04:05.945
Potato Man, think was one of them.

01:04:05.945 --> 01:04:07.525
Potato Man, absolutely.

01:04:08.237 --> 01:04:10.351
I'm excited about Duckman and his kids.

01:04:11.534 --> 01:04:14.233
Yeah, in the next year or so you're going to be sick of me.

01:04:14.233 --> 01:04:15.724
This is going to be a bunch of stuff.

01:04:15.724 --> 01:04:17.556
I don't think that's going to happen.

01:04:18.737 --> 01:04:21.860
Personally, personally don't think it's going to happen.

01:04:21.972 --> 01:04:23.753
All right, we appreciate you.

01:04:23.753 --> 01:04:26.195
Hopefully we see you again here on the show at some point in the future.

01:04:26.264 --> 01:04:26.719
Good deal.

01:04:26.719 --> 01:04:27.112
Thank you.

01:04:27.112 --> 01:04:28.228
Thanks for having me.

01:04:28.827 --> 01:04:29.327
Alrighty.

01:04:29.327 --> 01:04:32.090
There's that conversation with Christopher Priest again, priest.

01:04:32.090 --> 01:04:34.114
Thank you so much for joining us here on the Oblivion Bar podcast.

01:04:34.114 --> 01:04:34.744
Truly an honor.

01:04:34.744 --> 01:04:38.159
Definitely a milestone in the Oblivion Bar.

01:04:39.822 --> 01:04:40.641
Way too much.

01:04:40.641 --> 01:04:41.902
I was a fangirl.

01:04:41.902 --> 01:04:44.181
We were both gushing quite a bit there at the end.

01:04:44.181 --> 01:04:47.161
We came in really professional in the beginning.

01:04:47.161 --> 01:04:47.501
Really cool.

01:04:47.501 --> 01:04:47.842
cool.

01:04:47.842 --> 01:04:48.882
Really casual.

01:04:49.601 --> 01:04:51.101
Cool as other side of the pillow.

01:04:51.101 --> 01:04:54.601
And then we got about halfway in, we started talking about Superman Lost.

01:04:54.601 --> 01:04:55.842
And how can you not gush?

01:04:55.842 --> 01:05:04.121
mean, again, Christopher Pree in the industry for over 50 years and the guy is still so humble, so easy to talk to, you without naming any names, Aaron.

01:05:04.121 --> 01:05:09.811
And we always have great conversation with creators and they're always, always such a pleasure to talk to you.

01:05:09.811 --> 01:05:15.789
Every once in a while we get a creator who is just a little full of themselves, right?

01:05:15.789 --> 01:05:20.963
Like they start to see their worth in the medium and sort of let it get to their head a little bit.

01:05:20.963 --> 01:05:23.356
And that's cool, because they are cool and they're important.

01:05:23.356 --> 01:05:32.085
But like, if someone like Christopher Priest can still be humble with all that he's accomplished in the medium, I think that everyone can take a little bit from that.

01:05:32.085 --> 01:05:39.565
I think it's a little bit of attributes to the struggle that some people go through more than others.

01:05:39.565 --> 01:05:41.045
Oh, I mean, absolutely.

01:05:41.045 --> 01:05:46.106
He was the very first Marvel first African-American Marvel editor ever at Marvel Comics.

01:05:46.106 --> 01:05:49.286
You obviously went off and co-created the Milestone universe.

01:05:49.286 --> 01:05:55.385
He co-created a lot of I wouldn't say a lot of it, but a lot of the more important parts of the Valiant universe in the 90s.

01:05:55.385 --> 01:05:58.146
Obviously the Black Panther and we talked about a lot in this conversation.

01:05:58.146 --> 01:06:01.925
He has done so much that again, we could not talk about everything.

01:06:02.206 --> 01:06:05.445
So Christopher Priest will be back on the show at some point for whatever.

01:06:05.445 --> 01:06:07.706
Honestly, it doesn't even have to be for a project that he's working on.

01:06:07.706 --> 01:06:08.856
I would just love to.

01:06:08.856 --> 01:06:11.246
get him on a mic on this show again.

01:06:11.246 --> 01:06:13.628
I love the little tidbit that you had there about Superman Lost.

01:06:13.628 --> 01:06:17.231
I know you said that we went a little bit of a side quest there and that it was a little long.

01:06:17.231 --> 01:06:17.788
I don't agree.

01:06:17.788 --> 01:06:23.614
I think that I really liked that addition to the conversation because my plan was to just mostly talk about Marvel Knights.

01:06:23.614 --> 01:06:30.378
And I think that's important because the world to come at the time of this recording, at the time of release of this conversation is already out.

01:06:30.378 --> 01:06:36.831
But Superman Lost, I think, and you love it more than I do, so I know you agree with this, was criminally overlooked.

01:06:37.023 --> 01:06:39.380
Even with an Eisner knob, which is crazy.

01:06:39.615 --> 01:06:42.047
I think, you know what I'm thinking, Chris?

01:06:42.047 --> 01:06:53.916
I think that, no, it didn't happen this year, but I was gonna say maybe we should create something uh during our end of year awards that is like the underappreciated award.

01:06:53.916 --> 01:07:03.903
know, like something that, yeah, I mean, that would be kind of a cool thing, I think, because I would like to take time to talk about things that we agree that are criminally underrated.

01:07:03.903 --> 01:07:06.347
And if that's during my errands arcade or...

01:07:06.347 --> 01:07:08.780
during Chris's corner or just, just another segment.

01:07:08.780 --> 01:07:13.257
Maybe we have just a segment that's just underrated stories or something, you know?

01:07:13.257 --> 01:07:26.175
Uh, I think that, like he, he is, he is too talented to have any of his stories go underappreciated and, and, and that's, it's a, it's a tragedy that some of them have.

01:07:26.175 --> 01:07:28.842
So I'm glad that we were able to discuss it with him.

01:07:28.842 --> 01:07:29.282
Absolutely.

01:07:29.282 --> 01:07:32.248
And Aaron, I wanted to go back a little bit to our last call awards.

01:07:32.248 --> 01:07:37.047
I want to say that Superman lost one, one of our awards.

01:07:37.047 --> 01:07:38.057
Did it not?

01:07:38.697 --> 01:07:39.822
I think you.

01:07:40.134 --> 01:07:45.757
I vaguely remember if it wasn't, if it didn't win, definitely was nominated for one of our favorite books of the year.

01:07:45.757 --> 01:07:46.369
But anyway, yeah.

01:07:46.369 --> 01:07:49.740
So Christopher Priest being here on the show, what an honor, what a pleasure.

01:07:49.740 --> 01:07:54.393
I know Chris has probably not listened to this, but if he is, thank you so much for being here and we just appreciate it.

01:07:54.393 --> 01:07:56.666
So Aaron, think that'll do it for this conversation.

01:07:56.666 --> 01:07:57.927
Excited what we have coming up.

01:07:57.927 --> 01:08:02.389
We are still on the road to episode 200 of the Oblivion Bar podcast.

01:08:02.389 --> 01:08:06.443
That'll be coming up in, I want to say it's late July or maybe early August.

01:08:06.443 --> 01:08:11.742
I don't know what the timing is on that exactly, but Per usual, we're sticking to our normal script here.

01:08:11.742 --> 01:08:12.943
Nothing planned yet.

01:08:12.943 --> 01:08:14.664
We don't know what we're doing yet.

01:08:14.664 --> 01:08:17.246
Aaron, you know, if I had my choice, I would love to get together.

01:08:17.246 --> 01:08:21.028
I'd love to be together for that 200th, because we were together for the 100th, you know?

01:08:21.028 --> 01:08:24.969
So if we could somehow figure out a way to be together for the 200th, that'd be cool.

01:08:25.195 --> 01:08:31.408
I mean, you're always in my heart, but yeah, I think we should, do like, have a lock of your hair.

01:08:31.809 --> 01:08:33.250
and my wallet.

01:08:34.110 --> 01:08:35.051
I miss your smell.

01:08:35.051 --> 01:08:36.270
I your musk.

01:08:36.391 --> 01:08:37.712
I miss your laugh.

01:08:37.932 --> 01:08:42.755
but yeah, no, I think that that's something that we should, uh, we should start talking about.

01:08:44.015 --> 01:08:46.796
Start playing.

01:08:46.806 --> 01:08:47.157
All right.

01:08:47.157 --> 01:08:48.557
Well, that'll do it for this episode here.

01:08:48.557 --> 01:08:49.659
Aaron, go ahead and take us out here.

01:08:49.659 --> 01:08:51.692
Take us out of this episode.

01:08:51.692 --> 01:08:52.693
That'll do it.

01:08:52.693 --> 01:08:53.677
That'll do it big.

01:08:53.677 --> 01:09:02.493
subscribe to our podcast, apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube audible, I heart radio, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts, that's where we are.

01:09:02.493 --> 01:09:03.673
I'm gonna stop that.

01:09:03.673 --> 01:09:04.963
It sounds terrible.

01:09:06.045 --> 01:09:07.985
Let's just relax a little bit.

01:09:07.985 --> 01:09:09.525
Thank you to our pagers.

01:09:10.087 --> 01:09:22.710
Alex, Alice, Aaron, botter, Chris says Chris white, Chrissy, David, Elliot, Erica, George, Gianni, Greg, Haley ham six, Jake, Jeremy, Kyle, Losey, Mac, miles, Mike, Olivia, Ryan, I Robert shot saunter, Sean, Trevor, Travis, Zach and Brad Lisa.

01:09:22.710 --> 01:09:23.841
Nice recovery.

01:09:23.841 --> 01:09:24.221
Damn it.

01:09:24.221 --> 01:09:25.063
I almost had it.

01:09:25.063 --> 01:09:30.787
um you want, it's just, gets like, shanter, like Sean and saunter.

01:09:30.787 --> 01:09:42.787
Anyway, if you want to support the show without spending any money, a follow on your, a follow on your preferred podcasting platform and a five star rating and or review on Apple podcasts and Spotify, it helps us a ton.

01:09:42.787 --> 01:09:46.622
Like we say it just kind of like jokingly, but at the same time it really does help us.

01:09:46.622 --> 01:09:50.545
So feel free to go over there and give us a uh five star review.

01:09:50.632 --> 01:09:56.717
Uh, you know, on any of your platforms, follows on blue sky, Instagram, tick, talk, and Twitch at oblivion bar pod.

01:09:56.717 --> 01:10:02.042
Official merge of the show can be found on our website, www oblivion bar podcast.com.

01:10:02.042 --> 01:10:05.585
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01:10:05.585 --> 01:10:05.935
Thank you.

01:10:05.935 --> 01:10:08.527
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01:10:08.527 --> 01:10:10.798
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01:10:10.798 --> 01:10:11.158
Thank you.

01:10:11.158 --> 01:10:12.590
Dream kit for all of our musical themes.

01:10:12.590 --> 01:10:13.030
Thank you.

01:10:13.030 --> 01:10:13.711
Thank you.

01:10:13.711 --> 01:10:15.431
DJ skyvac for our grid theme.

01:10:15.431 --> 01:10:18.024
And last but not least do not.

01:10:18.028 --> 01:10:20.359
forget to tip your bartenders 20 % or more.

01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:26.485
I've been watching a lot of love on the spectrum and they even talk about doing that in love on the spectrum.

01:10:26.485 --> 01:10:29.929
Tip your goddamn bartenders, tip your hosts, your servers.

01:10:29.929 --> 01:10:31.310
They deserve it.

01:10:31.310 --> 01:10:31.951
Absolutely.

01:10:31.951 --> 01:10:35.182
I know tipping culture has gotten a little out of hand, but that's still rewarded.

01:10:35.182 --> 01:10:36.564
The people that are doing good work out there.

01:10:36.564 --> 01:10:39.337
So that'll do it for this episode of the oblivion bar podcast.

01:10:39.337 --> 01:10:40.787
Thank you to Christopher priest, Aaron.

01:10:40.787 --> 01:10:41.559
Thank you.

01:10:41.559 --> 01:10:43.038
And thank you to the listener.

01:10:43.761 --> 01:10:44.942
No, no, thank you.

01:10:44.942 --> 01:10:46.762
No, no, no.

01:10:46.762 --> 01:10:48.323
Hey, okay.

01:10:48.323 --> 01:10:49.045
I appreciate it.

01:10:49.045 --> 01:10:49.965
You more.

01:10:50.510 --> 01:10:51.027
All right.

01:10:51.027 --> 01:10:51.747
Thank you all so much.

01:10:51.747 --> 01:10:52.167
We appreciate it.

01:10:52.167 --> 01:10:55.170
We'll see you next week for the oblivion bar podcast.

01:11:35.800 --> 01:11:38.240
Hello everyone and welcome to episode one.

01:11:38.240 --> 01:11:42.871
uh Please leave that in.

01:11:42.871 --> 01:11:45.807
Please, I'm begging I have no idea what number it is.